Gun lubricants - again

[Cruzer]

"Ultima-Lube™ virtually eliminates metal to metal friction through the use of high quality conventional lubricants as a carrier and electrochemical ionization utilizing anti-friction metal treatment technology."

Sounds a lot like Militec-1. No MSDS on file anywhere I could find. Your guess is as good as mine...Wilson Combat has an outstanding reputation, but its not for their lubricants

[Cruzer]

Marvel Mystery Oil

http://images.shipstore.com/SS/Image...MAVMMOMSDS.pdf

"Mixture of mineral spirits, napthenic hydrocarbons, and chlorinated hydrocarbons"

"Complex mixture of petroleum distillates"

Doesn't sound like anything newfangled. Chlorinated hydrocarbons range from those in something like Militec to those in brake cleaner fluids. Either way, I would keep them away from my guns.

[Clayton Hufford]

Wilson Combat actually does not manufacture anything, at least no more than does Cold Steel. I live just a few miles from the Wilson shop. A very large manufacturer of lubricants for other companies is Muscle Products, manufacturer of FP-10, i.e. Shooter's Choice FP-10. http://www.mpc-home.com

[Cruzer]

Clayton,

Very interesting link. MPC is more likely a blender/repackaging company rather than a manufacturer. I really enjoyed their technical link and their technical papers. Again, very similar to Militec. There is a lot of handwaving that they do in their "technical papers" - saying a lot, but not saying anything.

The fact is that FP-10, and MT-10 contain halogenated hydrocarbons. Halogens are (Fluorine, Chlorine, Bromine, and Iodine). The one thing that these have in common is that they form acids when they decompose (strong acids that attack metal). MPC addresses this directly by saying that they have special scavenger metals and inhibitors to protect the metal. My personal/professional opinion is that this is a stretch (same as Militec). I see no advantage to these chemicals over standard lubricants, and lots of potential downsides. If you are happy with them, fine...

[Clayton Hufford]

Cruzer,I have used and tested FP-10, and found it to be a lousy protectant, and an average lubricant-it evaporates rather quickly. It boasts the same "Cation exchange" claim as Ultima-lube. I do have test data from the Falex Corp. on over 40 lubricants, and FP-10 is rated the best. Militec-1 and motor oil were not tested. The one thing I will give credit to MPC for is their customer service. When you contact them, you get to talk to the actual owner and inventor of the product, not some office clerk that's never even used the product.

[Romulus]

Cruzer, I just cleaned my 1911 barrel in Marvel Mystery Oil - it really gets out those repulsive carbon deposits that come from shooting Sellier&Bellot ammo. Am I to worry that this barrel will corrode? Should I resoak it in Hoppes or K-1 kerosene? And what about Birchwood Casey Gun Scrubber, it contains tetrachlorosomething...is this a precursor to some hydrochloric type acid? Have I been unwittingly damaging my babies with the "acid thing?

PS: I don't suppose you are member Curuzer...

Many thanks

[Sling Shot]

How about the Royco product 634 that is being marketed by Remington under Nitro CLP. I thought that the military went to this stuff. It says it is a synthetic on the label.
Anybody using it? Sling Shot

[Sling Shot]

Here is the link that I needed on the Royco 634.
https://trorderonline2.thomasregiste...hod=itemSearch

It tells what milspec specification that it meets and specifications. Sling Shot

[Clayton Hufford]

ROYCO CLP is indeed current issue, and although it boasts better lab results than Break Free CLP, I have found it to be a lousy lubricant and protectant. You're not missing anything.

[Cruzer]

Romulus,

Yes I am Curuzer/Cruzer, just a typo when I first registered

I don't have a problem with Marvel as a cleaner. I suspect that the chlorinated hydrocarbons it contains are similar to Gun Scrubber. Both products should be great for cleaning, but don't let them get on plastic parts. To answer your question, tetrachloroethylene and similar chemicals are solvents which will NOT release acid. Chlorinated alkanes/paraffins and such will tend to release acid under high temperature and/or pressure.

With respect to FP10 and other "lab tests", I would have to see what testing methods/protocols and which lubricants were tested. For example, on the MPC site, they provide tests under "extreme pressure and temperature" of a bunch of automotive lubricants. Not exactly a relevant test for firearms applications.

In general, all of the "halogenated hydrocarbon" lubricants (Ultimalube, Militec, FP10, MT10) are activated by high temperatures and friction. Guns under normal operating conditions will never reach the conditions necessary to really achieve the benefits from these lubricants. I would also not recommend the alternate approach which is baking your guns or heating the lubricants. Both will expose you to safety and health hazards I just couldn't recommend.

[PKAY]

Gee Cruzer, you're scarin' the begeezuz outa me! My home brew is likely to kill me!! Yipes! Will disposable masks and exam gloves along with safety glasses afford the appropriate protection or do I need a HAZMAT suit and SCUBA gear? And if I do, how can they market Kroil and Marvel Mystery Oil so cavalierly? What about STP type substances? Just as toxic?
I've downloaded the spec sheets you directed us to and want you to know how much I for one appreciate your excellent posts. Thanks!!

[Cruzer]

PKAY,

I for one don't want to be seen as an alarmist, but I am urging prudence in handling any chemicals (as you should always have). The labels should have general warnings on them, but it is your responsibility to read the MSDS and make sure you know what you are using. I was surprised by the nastiness of Kroil in particular, but, in addition Gun Scrubber and other halogenated hydrocarbons are also pretty nasty. I will state for the last time that a simple synthetic lubricant ought to do the job just fine, everything else has tradeoffs I'm not willing to make at the age of 33.

[Drundel]

Cruzer:

I keep forgetting all the brand names flying around.

Let me propose some situations and please advise what you would use.

A gun sitting in the safe.
A gun sitting in my bed stand in a non-leather holster.
My non-SS USP at the range.
My S&W 686 at the range.
A shotgun in the dove field.
A shotgun in the salt marsh.

Ok I was just some situations I face. I use Outers Tri-Lube on just about everything except when I use Tetra grease on most metal-to-metal slide action. I use Hoppes No. 9 and Bench Rest-9 Copper Solvent to clean my bores.

Anything better for these situations?

Thanks

So what about Slip2000? They advertise it as an environmental friendly cleaning product.

http://www.slip2000.com/gunlube/gunlube.html

[Sling Shot]

Clayton Hufford, yes I thought the ROYCO 634 was current CLP issue. Are you basing your opinions about the 634 on personal results? It would seem odd that the military would drop Breakfree CLP in favor of ROYCO 634 if it did not perform better. I much prefer the smell of the old Breakfree or the newer version with different smell than the Remington Nitro(ROYCO 634). It really stinks.
Sling Shot

[Cruzer]

Drundel,

Slip2000 is most likely based on siloxane chemistry - great at rust resistance, not as good as synthetic oils as a lubricant. Eezox is also based on siloxanes and is the best rust preventer I've come across. The problem is that siloxanes are incompatible with oils so you can use one or the other, not both.

What about all the situations you put before me? I would go for a single, good synthetic with superior corrosion protection. I have no experience with Breakfree CLP, but it did very well on some corrosion tests I read about, and it is a synthetic (PAO) lubricant. I use Castrol/Hoppes synthetic, but I have never tested how corrosion resistant it is. Using a light coat of Tetra grease on aluminum rails is fine, but usually not necessary on an all steel pistol. I wipe down my guns at least weekly (it gives me an excuse to bring them out). If you are particularly concerned about corrosion protection, try Eezox or slip2000. Let us know how it works out for you. Fortunately, we have lots of people on the board with good experiences to work from. Thanks.

[Drundel]

Oh Cruzer I found something else too...

http://www.sentrysolutions.com/rust_protection.html

Sounds interesting too...

I kinda belive in this stuff a little and think one day they will truly develop a wonder lube and oil. I had a few classes on metals and I remember aluminium forms a VERY hard oxide coating on the metal giving it a good protection.

Sorry to keep asking you questions but I find this very interesting. If you ever have a question about PC's let me know.

I just read your above post.

Wow one or the other? I was just about to said I would use Eezox or 2000 while the gun is in storage but then use rem oil or tri-lube when I am in the field but I guess not...

Looks like I'll keep using my oils and I might get one of those silicates that you put in a safe to take out moisture.

Thanks again.

[Cruzer]

Drundel,

No prob on the questions as long as nobody else gets annoyed at me. Sentry Cloths are also silicone based. You will notice if you use Tuf-cloth, Eezox, and slip2000 that if you apply oil, the oil will bead-up. Not that it will hurt the weapons, but the silicone bonds to the metal and prevents the oil from doing any good. The effect isn't permanent, so you can switch from one to another over time.

[Clayton Hufford]

Cruzer, Sentry Solutions products, specifically Tuf-Cloth, contains no silicone, according to the product packaging/literature.
I have used Break Free CLP for the last 15 years, both in the Army and as a civilian. I have used it on everything from M60 machineguns to 8 inch artillery. It is the best product, overall, that I have ever used, and I've tried just about everything available. The current product, made by Royal Lubricants, does not perform as well as the Break Free product in the real world. As I stated earlier, it shows better lab test results, both as a lubricant and a protectant, but in my personal experience it does not live up to it's claims. I tested it against Break Free CLP on bare carbon steel rifle barrels exposed to rainfall, and it didn't protect near as long as the Break Free product. Also, ROYCO CLP tends to leave a dry surface, good because it doesn't attract dirt and dust, but bad because it is impossible to monitor your weapon's needs.
ROYCO won the contract because of a lower bid, and a supposedly more user friendly(idiot proof) product, i.e. you do not have to shake it before use. IMHO if you do not have sense enough to shake a freakin bottle of CLP, you should not be issued a weapon.

[Sling Shot]

Hey Clayton. That was an interesting post. I use the Breakfree CLP myself. I might also try the Eezox. It sounds like it will be a good product.

Ladies and gentlman, concerning the Sentry Solutions Tuff Cloth. I am a member of http://www.bladeforums.com There are a lot of people, as you would imagine, that are interested in taking care of their knives. The topic comes up a lot on bladeforums about rust preventatives. There are some people that are not happy with the way that the Tuff Cloth prevents rust. These are people that are users of the Tuff Cloth, and they have had unsatisfactory results of it being used as a rust preventative. Also, mind you, that there are also people that are happy with the results of using the Tuff Cloth. I am in the first category of users, and I am not happy with the Tuff Cloth's rust prevention qualities. I had a very expensive automatic that was rust speckling using the Tuff Cloth. I no longer use the Tuff Cloth, and went back to using the Breakfree CLP, and now I no longer have rust problems. Sling Shot

[Sling Shot]

I am sold on the qualities of Eezox. I would like to compare it to Breakfree CLP. Who has it on the net at the cheapest price including shipping? The gun shops I frequent do not have it in stock, so that is why I am asking.
Sling Shot

[Clayton Hufford]

I have had mixed results with Tuf-Cloth, and I think that it is due to the way it works. Tuf-Cloth uses mineral spirits as a carrier to deliver what they refer to as a "micro-bonding crystal structure" to the metal. All dry lubes and protectants are mixed blessings IMHO. I only use them when in an extremely dusty/sandy environment.
BTW, I contacted both Mobil and Pennzoil a few weeks ago, and a rep. from Pennzoil actually called me! No response from Mobil. Anyways, the Pennzoil rep. said that while motor oil will work on most weapons, it will not provide a good level of protection from the elements, because motor oils are designed for use in a closed assembly. They will attract dirt and dust like a magnet for the same reasons. He did state that his biggest worry would be that the additives in motor oil may not be compatible with certain finishes. He stated an example of synthetic motor oil causing damage to chrome-plated parts in an experimental engine being tested. Check for compatibility, or use a product which is safe to use on any surface finish/metal treatment, such as Break-Free CLP.

[Clayton Hufford]

Buy it direct. Eezox Inc. PO BOX 772 Waterford, CT 06385 1-800-462-3331 A 7 ounce can costs $8.70. They do have great customer service. If you aren't happy with it, you can send it back for a refund.
Eezox is another product that dries to the touch. You also have to use it several times to get the full effect. It is a bit difficult to use, although not as bad as the Sentry line, or TW25B and Militec-1, which must be heated,etc.
I've tried them all, and I prefer the ease of use and cost effectiveness of Break Free CLP.
With all of these fancy high tech lubes, I have noticed that they often work well on some weapons, while not so well on others.

[Clayton Hufford]

Another product which makes the same claim as FP-10 and Ultima Lube(chemical ionization/cation exchange) is Protec. It is showing up here on local gun store shelves, and is quite expensive. http://www.proteclubricants.com 1-800-843-5649 The grease looks and smells the same as the Ultima lube grease. Overall, it looks good, with good test results. Way too expensive, though.

[Cruzer]

Clayton,

Tuf-Cloth says it contains no silicones but it doesn't say it doesn't contain siloxanes. Very subtle point... or as they say where I'm from - Same [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] Different Day (SSDD).

Siloxanes are technically dry, they are excellent corrosion inhibitors. On the other hand, they aren't the best lubricants because they stay put and don't flow when two metal parts rub together. Make sure you test them with your favorite oil (or just keep it away from the rails/internals) so the oil will work. I can't test every chemical out there, so I am bound to be wrong about some of my thoughts. Make sure you guys test and let us know what you think...I'll make sure the theory behind the practice makes sense and we all stay safe.

Drundel, I also believe some cool lubricants are around the corner. Unfortunately, we are all vulnerable to snake oil claims. If something is unique and patentable, the manufacturer can tell us what it is because he is protected. When someone tells us it's "pixie dust" or "miracle lube" the likelihood is that the stuff is a blend of easily available chemicals and they are "remarketing" with all sorts of claims because they can't back it up with fact. That is my experience with most of the new lubes out there.

[Matt VDW]

Thanks for all the info, Cruzer.

Can you tell us anything about testing protocols for lubricants? I wish there were some simple way to quantify a given lube's "slickness" under the conditions typically encountered in a firearm. Is there anything analogous to the Rockwell scale for metal hardness?