Copper removal no longer recommended?

[tobnpr]

Did anyone else catch the latest episode of Guns 'n Ammo?

They interviewed an instructor from some branch of Special Ops, that said in the last couple years they've come to the opinion that copper removal initially hurts accuracy- and that it takes a few dozen rounds to get it back to where it "was"...

Reasoning was that minor imperfections in the bore, are filled by the copper sloughing off the bullets, and by keeping these filled, accuracy is optimized.

Now, copper isn't removed until accuracy drops off. His example was of an AR-10 platform rifle, which he said had some 7,000 rounds on it (wow...) and that it still shot sub- half minute groups, and would not have the copper removed until groups opened up to over one minute.

Now, the reasoning makes sense to me...and while I notice that it takes a few more than the initial "fouling" shot to get me tight, it's not dozens...I use Wipe-Out exclusively, so copper is removed with each cleaning.

I've never noticed an improvement in groups after a few dozen rounds...

Thoughts from the peanut gallery?

[btmj]

I don't know enough about competitive shooting to have an opinion. But I can share a little history...

Copper removal is a fairly recent concept... by recent I mean in the last 25 years. There were a lot of world class shooters from 1900 - 1980 who set a lot of records, won a lot of trophies, and brought down a lot of game, and they did not give a lot of thought to copper removal.

[kraigwy]

I totally agree with the G&A concept of not removing the copper fouling. I've seen it time and time again in my M1A that I started shooting competition with in 1977 and still shoot today.

If I throughly clean the barrel it takes a while to get it back to shooting. Same thing with the Bolt action 223 I got in '78. I used it in police work until '94 and now its a PD hunter. It takes quite a few rounds to get it back to shooting after cleaning the bore.

I will add to the G&A article that this affects the smaller calibers (223s) then the heavy calibers (308s).

Some one via PM just asked me about cleaning a M1A when you can't (shouldn't) take it out of the stock.

In the steps I suggested, the last step was "take it out and shoot a dozen or so rounds through it".

To really test this theory, dig out you 204 Ruger, clean it and see what happens.

[Art Eatman]

This is a "damfino" for me. I started seeing degradation in group size in my two pet hunting rifles. A .243 and an '06. So, I did some copper removal effort, although I don't claim I did any sort of total removal. I do know that the last patches had much less blue/green than at first.

Et voila! Immediately, back to my expected tight groups.

[PawPaw]

Makes sense to me. It's the copper version of what cast bullet guys know as Black Bore condition. If you shoot enough cast bullets down a rifle barrel, and you get to the point where you've balanced alloy hardness, bullet fit, and lube, you'll start noticing your bore turning black.

Just like your grandmother's favorite cast-iron skillet, the bore accumulates lube and heat, and "seasons" itself. My cast bullet barrel hasn't been cleaned in several years. It's slick as snot and I don't intend to clean it until there's some other reason to go there. It's shooting as well as my old eyes can shoot it, it doesn't lead, and if it ain't broke, I ain't fixin' it.

I do notice that my regular barrels shoot best after a dozen or so rounds have been down them. I've cleaned my barrels this summer and I don't intend to break out the cleaning kit until after the hunting season. I'll give the rifles a good wipe-down at the end of the day, but I'm not going to push a rod into the bore.

[jimbob86]

His example was of an AR-10 platform rifle, which he said had some 7,000 rounds on it (wow...) and that it still shot sub- half minute groups, and would not have the copper removed until groups opened up to over one minute.

Two things come to mind:

"If it ain't broke, don't "fix" it."

"Don't let an attempt at perfection kill "good enough".

[xLPlushy]

I don't do much extensive copper removal. Once a year I might wipe the bore of my 7mm Mag with Hoppe's No.9 until clean, then I coat lightly with oil. But that depends on how much it was shot since the last cleaning. Wait a week or two and go to the range and put 5 or so rounds thru it. After it is removed from the case, it automatically receives an external wipe down with oil before it's put away.

I notice after these cleanings that the groups open up quite a bit for the first 5-10 shots after being cleaned.

This is quite an interesting three to be following.


Tapatalked via my highly abused iPhone

[kraigwy]

Just like your grandmother's favorite cast-iron skillet

Brings back memories. One of the worst whoopings I got as a kid was when I washed my Grandmothers cast iron corn bread pan.

Back to topic:

Ever wonder where and why the term "fouling shot" came from?

[Brian Pfleuger]

I've never owned or used a copper remover for my guns.

I used to use whatever cleaning agent and oil came with the various cleaning kits.

Now I use only Eezox.

Never have had any problems with accuracy degrading.

[jmr40]

The concept is sound and veteran shooters have been doing this for years. Start with a new, or newly cleaned barrel and you won't see optimum accuracy until 10-20 rounds have been fired through the barrel. Accuracy will continue to remain good up to a point. I never thoroughly clean my barrels until accuracy starts to drop off. That could be anywhere between 100-300 rounds depending on the gun. If rain, or debris finds its way into a barrel, it will get a quick cleaning, but not a thorough one.

Give them a thorough cleaning, get all the copper out, and fire 10-20 rounds through them and you are back to optimum accuracy.

[anothernewb]

huh. that's kinda interesting. As someone just getting into gun ownership myself -I've found it easy to get bowled over by all of the 27,000 uber super duper cleaners on the shelf. And of course the must have goodies like a exact fit bore guide matched to your gun and super coated carbon fiber cleaning rods and the rest - otherwise you're destroying your gun. and it will never even hit the ground at 300 yards if you don't clean it this or that way, and after every shot....

I found myself thinking ore than once - what did they use for the past 100 years, and what about people like simo haya and carlos hathcock. did they carry 5# of cleaning gear special rods and cleaning kits and break down the rifle between each shot?

With a few higher power center fire rifles now in my collection, I've been kinda wondering how much cleaning is enough and how careful do I really have to be?

I was planning to just shoot them, wipe them down, and run a few patches down the bore and not touch a brush unless I saw tons of carbon or chunks of stuff in the barrel.

good to see that I'm not alone in my thinking.

[ScottRiqui]

The people who obsess over every speck of dirt or shadow of carbon build-up should never, EVER, look at the inside of a car's engine - that's all I've got to say.

[tobnpr]

JMR....

I do that... I don't clean the barrel that often. Usually every 500 rounds or so.
But by using Wipe-Out, I'm removing the copper along with the carbon and powder fouling.

I guess the reasoning in the Military is perhaps that in the field- you may not have the luxury of a few dozen foulers to get back your accuracy.

But personally, when I do clean, I like to know I'm back to a baseline of sorts, even with the copper removed.

[603Country]

I was once much in favor of having very clean rifle barrels, and I used Hoppe's and Sweet's and Shooter's Choice and Butch's Bore Shine religiously, and worked hard at doing the cleaning. So, with the thought that cleaner is better, when it became available I got some really effective copper remover (Boretech Eliminator) and for once in my life I really got all the copper out of the barrel. And the rifle didn't shoot as well as it had until I had shot it some more. Hmmm! I do now believe that with those other cleaners I was getting the carbon fouling out, but only some of the copper fouling, and that was good. As with a lot of things, what I 'know' is a thin book and what I 'think' is a thick book, but my thinking today is to not remove all the copper or I'll have to put a little back to get max accuracy. And, how much fouling is right for a rifle depends on the specific rifle.

That said, when it comes time to get all the copper out, and that day will come eventually, you can't do much better than using Boretech Eliminator.

[Sweet Shooter]

What about the idea that copper can actually lubricate the bore and protect against more aggressive, abrasive bi-products of combustion? That's always been a thought on my mind. I'd so love for someone to convince me that a lighter cleaning even perhaps a clean Boresnake is all that's needed. I don't enjoy cleaning with chemicals at all.
-SS-

[CharlieDeltaJuliet]

I don't remove copper until it affects the patterns of the rifle. After talking with a few long range shooting instructors and marksmen, they convinced me to let it be. They swear it acts like a bearing surface for the round to move on inside the barrel.. It works for me...

[Tom68]

earlier this year I got bit by the "super clean barrel" bug and got serious about removing copper. The last two times I have shot either of those rifles, the accuracy hasn't been what it used to be, so I'm going to give it a rest, keep shooting, and see if it returns to normal.

[stubbicatt]

The phenomenon of accuracy increasing after the barrel is properly fouled is hard to contest, there is evidence everywhere, and I too have observed this.

I remember some years ago reading that there is some sort of galvanic action between dissimilar metals, which, in the case of barrel steel and copper, can lead to pitting of the ferrous metal (i.e. the barrel).

I have been using Mpro7 pump cleaner now for years, and notice that it seems to remove the thin smears of copper visible in the muzzle of the bore when used with a bore brush. I do this mostly because it is "good enough" for me, and because I really don't like the smell of those ammonia based cleaners.

Anybody else hear about this galvanic pitting phenomenon.

[FrankenMauser]

I have followed the "don't scrub copper out unless you have to" belief, for a while now.

I noticed the phenomena in my own rifles, after a few high round count outings.
Shortly thereafter, I read a few articles that followed exactly what I experienced. So... I'm sold.

[hooligan1]

Pretty much ditto for me what Art and Frankenmauser say, I thought for awhile I had a fouling issue, I bought several products to get rid of it, although not many of them worked like they said they would. Bottom line here is that the only copper fouling problem I really had was that I could see it in the muzzle area with my glasses on. It never really diminished my groups to the point of panic, so I scrub until I'm tired of scrubbing then quit, until groups open up considerably.

[Sweet Shooter]

There it is then. I'm going to give it a rest. However... what's to be done about getting the other stuff out? I was also wondering what about burned oil in the bore... I generally try to remove any preserving oil from the bore and especially the chamber but I'm thinking (not "knowing") that there is oil burning in there... let it "season"?

@stubbicatt—Are you saying the copper is effecting the barrel steel on a molecular level? So swapping electrons?

-SS-

[stubbicatt]

Are you saying the copper is effecting the barrel steel on a molecular level? So swapping electrons?

I don't actually know the mechanism or even if this actually happens, but it seems maybe 10- 15 years ago I read something to this effect in one of those Precision Shooter magazines or the like. I wish I remembered it better.

[YARDDOG(1)]

The only thing I do to my Rifles is run a oiled patch down the tube & put it up.
Come time to shoot, moons later I run dry patch to get oil out & start shooting JMO ; )
Y/D

[James K]

I don't know for sure that removing or leaving the copper wash is better. I do know that some folks equate copper wash with the old cupro-nickel fouling that was created by the cupro-nickel bullet jackets of the old Krag and early Springfield days. That material did build up, in chunks that could be easily seen in the barrel. It was that fouling that Hoppe's No. 9 was originally formulated to remove, by attacking and dissolving the copper in the cupro-nickel alloy.

But the gilding metal (not pure copper, it is 5% zinc) in modern bullet jackets leaves only a thin wash, not big lumps of metal, and it takes a lot of firing for it to build up at all, let alone enough to affect accuracy.

When I have said this before, the responses were uniformly in favor of scrubbing the heck out of a barrel, even using steel wool or emery cloth to remove that horrible copper fouling. I am glad to see someone who seems to agree that it does not always need to be removed and that excessive cleaning may do more harm than copper wash.

Jim

[coyota1]

Interesting this came up. My 788 223 had quite a build up of copper when I got it. I used a copper remover, and the point of impact changed by inches. I was convinced it needed to be removed. I get .5" groups with it.