Removing recoil spring from guide, Sig P210

JeffK · August 20, 2014, 02:36 PM

I just picked up a P210 Legend, and poking around inside and trying to clean off all the oil and grease they packed it with, I see no obvious way to remove the recoil spring from the guide rod. Looks like maybe the end piece unsrews from the rod, but I don't want to muck with it unless I'm sure that's the right thing to do. Can anyone confirm this?

James K · August 20, 2014, 07:40 PM

Nothing unscrews. That is a permanent assembly, so don't mess with it. You can clean anything that needs cleaning without trying to take apart something that doesn't come apart.

Jim

JeffK · August 20, 2014, 09:04 PM

OK, thanks for the tip. It must come off that way, there's no other way, but if it's meant to be permanent then it's probably very tight and would require special tools. Minor cleaning annoyance, is all.

James K · August 21, 2014, 10:35 PM

Maybe I wasn't quite clear. On the 210, the recoil spring and guide rod can be removed from the slide/barrel for cleaning. But the guide rod is peened over on the front end to hold the spring and the disc captive. There is no way to take that guide rod and spring assembly apart. None. Not without ruining it. There is no special tool. You would have to grind the front end off the rod or cut the rod if you wanted to remove the spring.

If the assembly is really greasy or dirty, get some Kroil, gasoline, or some other solvent, and slosh the assembly around in it.

Jim

JeffK · August 21, 2014, 11:32 PM

The spring and rod look like this,

The front side, on the right, is part of the rod and can't be removed, not sure if it's machined or peened. The black back side, on the left, appears to be screwed into the rod. There are two flats machined into the rod, near the back end, which would only be there to keep the rod from rotating while the end is torqued down. You can't see them in this pic.

James K · August 21, 2014, 11:40 PM

OK, unscrew it and show us some pictures of the disassembled rod. It is never too late to learn.

Jim

RX-79G · August 22, 2014, 12:07 AM

I'm sure it can be taken apart - once.

Before you apply torque, I challenge you to find a single image or description anywhere on the interwebs of a disassembled P210 recoil guide rod.

I would consider this stuff called solvent, instead.

JeffK · August 22, 2014, 12:10 AM

Some rude folks here, sorry I asked....

RX-79G · August 22, 2014, 12:19 AM

Which part was rude? The suggestion that you might be breaking your expensive gun? Or the suggestion that you can clean a spring thoroughly even with a rod inside it?

Sorry for both.

JAREDSHS · August 22, 2014, 09:51 AM

and just say you do get the above item all nice and squeaky "clean" are you gonna slap some more oil or grease on it when you put it back in your gun?? Inquiring minds would like to know?? I mean it appears to already be properly lubricated. What is wrong---does the gun malfunction?? I just do not understand your problem

Have you even fired the gun yet? How does it shoot?

Oh and by the way we are only rude here when we have to be.

JeffK · August 22, 2014, 12:04 PM

^^^Thank you for demonstrating post #8.

That's not my spring, it's from a google search. I don't need to clean mine yet, but after a couple hundred rounds I probably will.

I'm fine with cleaning the whole assembly, see post #3, it's just gonna be more of a mess. I'm also fine with not disassembling the spring from the rod, since if it's not intended to be taken apart I'm not going to force it - see posts #1 and #3.

An incorrect statement was made in post #4, I pointed that out by way of a photo and explanation in post #5 of how the part must have been assembled in the first place, in case someone else later comes to this thread looking for accurate info. But it looks to me like special tools are required, and probably a lot of torque.

Perhaps post #7 simply misunderstood or didn't read farther up and was trying to be helpful, that's fine. But post #10 is a troll that adds no value.

Thank you, I think I've learned as much as I'll ever learn about this part on this forum, and hopefully down the road someone else will learn something too.

Gun is amazing by the way, fit and finish is top shelf and every action is buttery-smooth. It's in a different class from my P226, that itself is very well made. Have not fired it yet, except dry, plan to this weekend. This gun will become unobtainium in California after January, when the SSE loophole closes - like many other great handguns, it's off-roster.

RX-79G · August 22, 2014, 12:22 PM

Just for clarity, I have owned a P210 for many years, have taken it apart and read just about everything I can about it, including translating a bunch of German pages, too. I believe James is similarly experienced.

He was trying to politely talk you out of damaging your gun. I was attempting the same with less pussyfooting.

I have no doubt that you have found the method by which the rod assembly is put together. But there really are ways to make parts like this that crush the threads together as they are tightened to make a permanent bond, and if you get it apart that will be it. Even if it goes back together, you won't know for sure what the parts are doing during firing, and if they separate inside you gun the damage could be regrettable.

There a guy named Michael Zeleny who posts as Lavartus on various forums. He knows more about these guns than anyone in the US. I'd ask him before you proceed.

James K · August 22, 2014, 02:12 PM

Just a couple of notes. First, I am not trying to be rude to anyone, only to keep the OP from breaking an expensive gun part.

Perhaps he has experience with the Star Model 30, which uses much the same system and which has a guide rod and recoil spring assembly that does come apart. But most captive assemblies like that are not made to be disassembled.

But the SIG 210 has no such arrangement; the guide is solid. It appears that the spring and disc were put on, and then the front end expanded and shaped (upset), a fairly common technique used in captive assemblies that are not intended for dis-assembly.

I have searched for more information, thinking I might have overlooked something. It is rather interesting that almost every reply to replacing or cleaning the SIG P210 recoil spring starts with "I don't know about the 210, but the 1911..." It should be obvious, but they are different pistols. It is also of note that Wolff does not list a recoil spring for the 210 since it cannot be replaced

I have also checked parts catalogs; those that show the recoil spring and guide show an assembly, with no parts indicated.

Last, but not least, I am not going by pictures or web postings. I have a P210, and I have tried disassembling that guide every way I can think of without doing serious damage to it. I have examined it under magnification and nothing indicates it is anything but solid.

If anyone knows different, I would be happy to hear from him.

Jim

RX-79G · August 22, 2014, 02:24 PM

James,

There are enough differences in the production of the Legend vs. the rest of the 210 line that I woudn't be surprised if they changed the way that part is assembled. I just don't think it matters because it was also intended to be permanent.

Peter M. Eick · August 22, 2014, 04:22 PM

I just looked at my spare 210 recoil spring assembly and it looks peened over to me. I don't see how it could be taken apart by unscrewing.

This is why I ordered a few spare years ago when you could still easily get parts. Maybe with the new legends we can get parts again?

James K · August 22, 2014, 04:41 PM

Hi, RX-79G,

The parts diagrams and pictures of the parts do not indicate any difference from the original 210, but I don't have a Legend.

Jim

RX-79G · August 22, 2014, 05:07 PM

The Legend is not made in the old plant, but in Germany. I have one Legend mag I adapted to my M/49, and it is functionally the same, but is built differently.

When the Sauer guys got the blueprints, they may have made other small changes to suit the machinery they are working with. The OP pointed out what sounds like wrench flats on his spring guide.

stephen426 · August 22, 2014, 05:31 PM

Who here has both the original P210 and the new P210 Legend? While I love how my P210 shoots, I am not crazy about the hammer bite. I am very conscious about how I grip the gun and don't have fat hands, but I still get bit. I also prefer the "American" thumb mag release compared to the "European" heel mag release. I don't know... I may get the new P210 eventually, but I will most probably keep my original P210 as well.

JeffK · August 22, 2014, 06:52 PM

This is the Legend recoil spring assembly (now slightly dirty after 150 rounds). There is what appears to be a torque value stamped into the end:
rod1c.jpg
rod2c.jpg

Awesome gun by the way. Very smooth and easy to shoot, I can put rounds within the 10 zone all day a 25 yards, with most within a 3" group, and it's all one hole at 7 yards. The gun can do better of course, I have the bench test target to prove it, but pretty good for handheld and out of the box. I did get quite a few feed failures though, have to look into that.

RX-79G · August 22, 2014, 07:55 PM

Your rod, as you said from the beginning, is indeed different than the originals.

That said, everything stated so far about it not necessarily being something you should take apart stands. 5nM is not particularly tight, so there is likely a secondary means (red loctite, solder, one way threads) holding it together that you might not want to screw with - especially considering that everything you want to clean is right there on the surface, and no one sells springs on their own.

James K · August 22, 2014, 08:34 PM

Yep, that is different from the original, and it does look like that guide comes apart. If so, I was wrong, and I apologize.

Even so, it might not be a good idea to take the rod apart, if it can be cleaned without doing so.

Jim

JeffK · August 22, 2014, 10:40 PM

No problem at all, sounds like this spring is different from the older ones.

Just out of irresistable curiousity, I did give unscrewing it a try, and it came off easily - little 6 mm open-ended wrench on the flats, end piece in a vice, turn the wrench. There is threadlocker in there, so I cleaned everything off and then put it all back together with locktight blue (242). I'll keep a close eye on it for a while, next time I take it out, to make sure it doesn't start unscrewing itself. If that's a problem, I have two stronger flavors of locktight.

So, it does unscrew, but I can't speak to the wisdom of unscrewing it, and I see no real reason to do it again given that it's threadlocked together, and it can be cleaned as one assembly. If anyone else has any reason to want or need to do this, be cautious because 5 Nm is not much torque - basically, just enough torque to realign the flats on the rod to the flats on the end piece.

stephen426 · August 23, 2014, 12:06 AM

I'm so freaking tempted... Just saw a couple of P210 Legends going for just over $1700. I think the wifie will get mad if I make more frivolous purchases right now. We just redid the pool for about $12,000. I also gave in to a few knife purchases for BOUT $700. I also picked up a Springfield Armory XDs recently. Arghhh... Maybe I should just get the beavertail they sell to retrofit the P210.

PzGren · August 23, 2014, 10:42 PM

The Swiss P210 guide rods cannot be unscrewed, while they are of a two piece design, they have a very well fitting pin going through the rod that secures the black part. It is so well fitted, that it is undetectable on my P210-4 but barely visible on my 210-6.

JeffK · August 30, 2014, 12:49 AM

Follow-up, 200 more rounds through the Legend, no problems and the rod didn't start unscrewing itself so I reckon it's fine. Once thoroughly cleaned of all the shipping grease, it actually doesn't get very dirty from use. So, my take is, it might be worth carefully taking it apart once to clean it thoroughly, but beyond that it's safer to just leave it alone and clean as-needed as a complete unit.

August 22, 2014, 04:22 PM	#15
Peter M. Eick Senior Member Join Date: August 3, 1999 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 2,991	I just looked at my spare 210 recoil spring assembly and it looks peened over to me. I don't see how it could be taken apart by unscrewing. This is why I ordered a few spare years ago when you could still easily get parts. Maybe with the new legends we can get parts again? __________________ 10mm and 357sig, the best things to come along since the 38 super!

August 22, 2014, 05:31 PM	#18
stephen426 Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2005 Posts: 3,840	Who here has both the original P210 and the new P210 Legend? While I love how my P210 shoots, I am not crazy about the hammer bite. I am very conscious about how I grip the gun and don't have fat hands, but I still get bit. I also prefer the "American" thumb mag release compared to the "European" heel mag release. I don't know... I may get the new P210 eventually, but I will most probably keep my original P210 as well. __________________ The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency!

August 23, 2014, 12:06 AM	#23
stephen426 Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2005 Posts: 3,840	I'm so freaking tempted... Just saw a couple of P210 Legends going for just over $1700. I think the wifie will get mad if I make more frivolous purchases right now. We just redid the pool for about $12,000. I also gave in to a few knife purchases for BOUT $700. I also picked up a Springfield Armory XDs recently. Arghhh... Maybe I should just get the beavertail they sell to retrofit the P210. __________________ The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency!

August 20, 2014, 02:36 PM	#1
JeffK Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2014 Posts: 206	Removing recoil spring from guide, Sig P210 I just picked up a P210 Legend, and poking around inside and trying to clean off all the oil and grease they packed it with, I see no obvious way to remove the recoil spring from the guide rod. Looks like maybe the end piece unsrews from the rod, but I don't want to muck with it unless I'm sure that's the right thing to do. Can anyone confirm this?

August 20, 2014, 07:40 PM	#2
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Nothing unscrews. That is a permanent assembly, so don't mess with it. You can clean anything that needs cleaning without trying to take apart something that doesn't come apart. Jim

August 20, 2014, 09:04 PM	#3
JeffK Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2014 Posts: 206	OK, thanks for the tip. It must come off that way, there's no other way, but if it's meant to be permanent then it's probably very tight and would require special tools. Minor cleaning annoyance, is all.

August 21, 2014, 10:35 PM	#4
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Maybe I wasn't quite clear. On the 210, the recoil spring and guide rod can be removed from the slide/barrel for cleaning. But the guide rod is peened over on the front end to hold the spring and the disc captive. There is no way to take that guide rod and spring assembly apart. None. Not without ruining it. There is no special tool. You would have to grind the front end off the rod or cut the rod if you wanted to remove the spring. If the assembly is really greasy or dirty, get some Kroil, gasoline, or some other solvent, and slosh the assembly around in it. Jim

August 21, 2014, 11:32 PM	#5
JeffK Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2014 Posts: 206	The spring and rod look like this, The front side, on the right, is part of the rod and can't be removed, not sure if it's machined or peened. The black back side, on the left, appears to be screwed into the rod. There are two flats machined into the rod, near the back end, which would only be there to keep the rod from rotating while the end is torqued down. You can't see them in this pic.

August 21, 2014, 11:40 PM	#6
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	OK, unscrew it and show us some pictures of the disassembled rod. It is never too late to learn. Jim

August 22, 2014, 12:07 AM	#7
RX-79G Junior member Join Date: October 27, 2013 Posts: 1,139	I'm sure it can be taken apart - once. Before you apply torque, I challenge you to find a single image or description anywhere on the interwebs of a disassembled P210 recoil guide rod. I would consider this stuff called solvent, instead.

August 22, 2014, 12:10 AM	#8
JeffK Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2014 Posts: 206	Some rude folks here, sorry I asked....

August 22, 2014, 12:19 AM	#9
RX-79G Junior member Join Date: October 27, 2013 Posts: 1,139	Which part was rude? The suggestion that you might be breaking your expensive gun? Or the suggestion that you can clean a spring thoroughly even with a rod inside it? Sorry for both.

August 22, 2014, 09:51 AM	#10
JAREDSHS Senior Member Join Date: July 7, 2004 Location: Mountains in North East Tennessee. Posts: 176	and just say you do get the above item all nice and squeaky "clean" are you gonna slap some more oil or grease on it when you put it back in your gun?? Inquiring minds would like to know?? I mean it appears to already be properly lubricated. What is wrong---does the gun malfunction?? I just do not understand your problem Have you even fired the gun yet? How does it shoot? Oh and by the way we are only rude here when we have to be. Last edited by JAREDSHS; August 22, 2014 at 10:01 AM.

August 22, 2014, 12:04 PM	#11
JeffK Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2014 Posts: 206	^^^Thank you for demonstrating post #8. That's not my spring, it's from a google search. I don't need to clean mine yet, but after a couple hundred rounds I probably will. I'm fine with cleaning the whole assembly, see post #3, it's just gonna be more of a mess. I'm also fine with not disassembling the spring from the rod, since if it's not intended to be taken apart I'm not going to force it - see posts #1 and #3. An incorrect statement was made in post #4, I pointed that out by way of a photo and explanation in post #5 of how the part must have been assembled in the first place, in case someone else later comes to this thread looking for accurate info. But it looks to me like special tools are required, and probably a lot of torque. Perhaps post #7 simply misunderstood or didn't read farther up and was trying to be helpful, that's fine. But post #10 is a troll that adds no value. Thank you, I think I've learned as much as I'll ever learn about this part on this forum, and hopefully down the road someone else will learn something too. Gun is amazing by the way, fit and finish is top shelf and every action is buttery-smooth. It's in a different class from my P226, that itself is very well made. Have not fired it yet, except dry, plan to this weekend. This gun will become unobtainium in California after January, when the SSE loophole closes - like many other great handguns, it's off-roster.

August 22, 2014, 12:22 PM	#12
RX-79G Junior member Join Date: October 27, 2013 Posts: 1,139	Just for clarity, I have owned a P210 for many years, have taken it apart and read just about everything I can about it, including translating a bunch of German pages, too. I believe James is similarly experienced. He was trying to politely talk you out of damaging your gun. I was attempting the same with less pussyfooting. I have no doubt that you have found the method by which the rod assembly is put together. But there really are ways to make parts like this that crush the threads together as they are tightened to make a permanent bond, and if you get it apart that will be it. Even if it goes back together, you won't know for sure what the parts are doing during firing, and if they separate inside you gun the damage could be regrettable. There a guy named Michael Zeleny who posts as Lavartus on various forums. He knows more about these guns than anyone in the US. I'd ask him before you proceed.

August 22, 2014, 02:12 PM	#13
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Just a couple of notes. First, I am not trying to be rude to anyone, only to keep the OP from breaking an expensive gun part. Perhaps he has experience with the Star Model 30, which uses much the same system and which has a guide rod and recoil spring assembly that does come apart. But most captive assemblies like that are not made to be disassembled. But the SIG 210 has no such arrangement; the guide is solid. It appears that the spring and disc were put on, and then the front end expanded and shaped (upset), a fairly common technique used in captive assemblies that are not intended for dis-assembly. I have searched for more information, thinking I might have overlooked something. It is rather interesting that almost every reply to replacing or cleaning the SIG P210 recoil spring starts with "I don't know about the 210, but the 1911..." It should be obvious, but they are different pistols. It is also of note that Wolff does not list a recoil spring for the 210 since it cannot be replaced I have also checked parts catalogs; those that show the recoil spring and guide show an assembly, with no parts indicated. Last, but not least, I am not going by pictures or web postings. I have a P210, and I have tried disassembling that guide every way I can think of without doing serious damage to it. I have examined it under magnification and nothing indicates it is anything but solid. If anyone knows different, I would be happy to hear from him. Jim

August 22, 2014, 02:24 PM	#14
RX-79G Junior member Join Date: October 27, 2013 Posts: 1,139	James, There are enough differences in the production of the Legend vs. the rest of the 210 line that I woudn't be surprised if they changed the way that part is assembled. I just don't think it matters because it was also intended to be permanent.

August 22, 2014, 04:41 PM	#16
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Hi, RX-79G, The parts diagrams and pictures of the parts do not indicate any difference from the original 210, but I don't have a Legend. Jim

August 22, 2014, 05:07 PM	#17
RX-79G Junior member Join Date: October 27, 2013 Posts: 1,139	The Legend is not made in the old plant, but in Germany. I have one Legend mag I adapted to my M/49, and it is functionally the same, but is built differently. When the Sauer guys got the blueprints, they may have made other small changes to suit the machinery they are working with. The OP pointed out what sounds like wrench flats on his spring guide.

August 22, 2014, 06:52 PM	#19
JeffK Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2014 Posts: 206	This is the Legend recoil spring assembly (now slightly dirty after 150 rounds). There is what appears to be a torque value stamped into the end: rod1c.jpg rod2c.jpg Awesome gun by the way. Very smooth and easy to shoot, I can put rounds within the 10 zone all day a 25 yards, with most within a 3" group, and it's all one hole at 7 yards. The gun can do better of course, I have the bench test target to prove it, but pretty good for handheld and out of the box. I did get quite a few feed failures though, have to look into that.

August 22, 2014, 07:55 PM	#20
RX-79G Junior member Join Date: October 27, 2013 Posts: 1,139	Your rod, as you said from the beginning, is indeed different than the originals. That said, everything stated so far about it not necessarily being something you should take apart stands. 5nM is not particularly tight, so there is likely a secondary means (red loctite, solder, one way threads) holding it together that you might not want to screw with - especially considering that everything you want to clean is right there on the surface, and no one sells springs on their own.

August 22, 2014, 08:34 PM	#21
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Yep, that is different from the original, and it does look like that guide comes apart. If so, I was wrong, and I apologize. Even so, it might not be a good idea to take the rod apart, if it can be cleaned without doing so. Jim

August 22, 2014, 10:40 PM	#22
JeffK Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2014 Posts: 206	No problem at all, sounds like this spring is different from the older ones. Just out of irresistable curiousity, I did give unscrewing it a try, and it came off easily - little 6 mm open-ended wrench on the flats, end piece in a vice, turn the wrench. There is threadlocker in there, so I cleaned everything off and then put it all back together with locktight blue (242). I'll keep a close eye on it for a while, next time I take it out, to make sure it doesn't start unscrewing itself. If that's a problem, I have two stronger flavors of locktight. So, it does unscrew, but I can't speak to the wisdom of unscrewing it, and I see no real reason to do it again given that it's threadlocked together, and it can be cleaned as one assembly. If anyone else has any reason to want or need to do this, be cautious because 5 Nm is not much torque - basically, just enough torque to realign the flats on the rod to the flats on the end piece.

August 23, 2014, 10:42 PM	#24
PzGren Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2001 Posts: 1,260	The Swiss P210 guide rods cannot be unscrewed, while they are of a two piece design, they have a very well fitting pin going through the rod that secures the black part. It is so well fitted, that it is undetectable on my P210-4 but barely visible on my 210-6.

August 30, 2014, 12:49 AM	#25
JeffK Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2014 Posts: 206	Follow-up, 200 more rounds through the Legend, no problems and the rod didn't start unscrewing itself so I reckon it's fine. Once thoroughly cleaned of all the shipping grease, it actually doesn't get very dirty from use. So, my take is, it might be worth carefully taking it apart once to clean it thoroughly, but beyond that it's safer to just leave it alone and clean as-needed as a complete unit.