Restamping serial number on receiver...legal?

mattfra · March 13, 2005, 02:18 PM

I just refinished an East German Makarov for a friend using GunKote. The serial number is really hard to read due to it being originally stamped lightly.

Would it be legal to "restamp" the serial number on a another part of the gun to kind of "confirm it" in case it ever came into question? Would that be considered defacing/altering a serial number in legal terms?

Any ideas?

Thanks.

Dfariswheel · March 13, 2005, 02:29 PM

As I recall (Don't hold me to this), a gunsmith is allowed to re-stamp a serial number when an alteration to a gun makes the original stamping hard to see, OR obliterates it entirely.

As far as I know, there is no reason the SAME number can't be stamped on another place on the same gun, since the original stamping isn't altered.

In your case, as long as the original mark is intact, even if hard to see, you can stamp the same number as many times as you want, where you want, since you have NOT "defaced or altered" the original number.

**4V50 Gary** · March 13, 2005, 02:51 PM

Contact the ATF. I don't tnink they would object if the #s were stamped on another part of the frame. It's obliterating the marks that gets them upset (but if you wanted to do so, you write first, ask permission and explain why as well as telling them your intent to restamp with the same #s and wait for response).

mete · March 13, 2005, 08:00 PM

Make sure the new stamp is done before touching the old one !!Otherwise there should be no problem ,gunsmiths do it .

mattfra · March 13, 2005, 09:01 PM

Thanks for the replies fellas. I did remove some of the finish over the serial number by lightly rubbing with 000 steel wool dampened with acetone. The serial # shows up a little better. I think I'll remove a little more and then carefully mask over the serial number and respray that side of the frame.
I sure would feel better with something more legible like under the trigger guard or someplace inconspicuous. I may just contact the ATFE too.

Anyhow, thanks again!!

Easy Money · March 16, 2005, 06:12 PM

The BATF say you can restamp the number. But you CAN NOT stamp over the orgainaly numbers you have put them in another spot on the gun. I had to do this with some of the depts shotguns.

mattfra · March 16, 2005, 08:03 PM

Ok, thanks Easy Money. I've been looking at a "low rent" stamp set like for $11 @ Wholesale Tool in Charlotte which has letters and numerals. The steel on that Mak is hard. Would these cheapos leave their mark?

Dave Sample · March 17, 2005, 01:08 PM

Leave it alone. As long as the factory numbers show up there is no need to do anything. If you deface a reciever you are in for Big Fed Trouble. I had to destroy a 1911 WWI lower end because the serial number had been ground off. Why does this bother you? I am just trying to understand the new mind set in 2005, not looking for a flame. I will tell you this. I have an FFL and would NEVER re-stamp any reciever.

James K · March 17, 2005, 01:27 PM

Nonetheless, Dave, the old ATTD did issue a Revenue Ruling on that. I can't find it now, but a letter should get a new one or a copy of the old one.

The reason was that gunsmiths often have to polish a receiver to remove rust and that either the polish or the rust itself could go deep enough to partially or wholly remove a serial number. The ruling said that a gunsmith who obliterated a number in the process of refinishing could either restore the old serial number or apply to them for a new number to be assigned. IIRC, nothing was said about where the number was to be put, or that it couldn't be over the old one.

I know of nothing in subsequent laws that would change that. I assume the ruling is still in effect since it was a formal Revenue Ruling, not just a letter on an individual case.

Jim

mattfra · March 17, 2005, 02:44 PM

Ok, let me clarify why I pursued this in the first place. First of all it's my friend's Makarov. It's his lawful carry gun. He is just concerned if the S/N were ever looked at by law enforcement it would take too much effort to find. He was looking to have the S/N legible. It's an East German Mak and it looks like they used a nail to scribe the S/N so it wasn't deep to begin with.
If it's not a big deal to restamp legally I will. I just didn't to give any impression whatsoever of trying to defraud/manipulate/deceive/deface etc.....

novus collectus · March 17, 2005, 05:26 PM

Depending on when the makarov was imported it should have the importers stamp somwhere on the receiver. Give them a call and maybe (never tried myself, so a big maybe) they will tell you what you're allowed to do and maybe (big maybe) stamp it for your friend for free (except for shipping). But BATF is the only word I would trust.

Dave Sample · March 18, 2005, 11:08 AM

I am sure Jim Is Right. There just certain things that I do not want any part of. I am not a "Worry Wort." Why does he not take it to his deopartment armorer and have it done of it bothers him?

Tamara · March 21, 2005, 10:16 AM

Quote:

As I recall (Don't hold me to this), a gunsmith is allowed to re-stamp a serial number when an alteration to a gun makes the original stamping hard to see, OR obliterates it entirely.

This is exactly what happens every time a Browning High Power gets its frontstrap checkered.

Dave Sample · March 21, 2005, 11:00 AM

I don't do Hi Powers. I have never been able to figure out how to hand checker them due to the configuation of the front strap which prevents the use of a standard checkering file. Perhaps some of the more experienced experts can explain to me how dey do dat? All the guys I know stipple them around the serial number.

Tamara · March 21, 2005, 11:10 AM

Don't ask me, Dave. Someone else drives the files, I just drive the Log Book. The fact that they are far more frequently stippled than checkered does seem to indicate that A) It must be a colossal pain in the buttocks, and B) There's the added hassle of moving the S/N. (Although I've also seen complete stippling coverage with the S/N moved elsewhere on the frame as well.)

Dave Sample · March 21, 2005, 12:18 PM

I am sure you are right, Tamara. I know that you can EDM a Hi Power Front Strap or perhaps even machine checker it. Don Williams is one of the best Hi Power guys I know and I will get the straight dope from him next time I am out there. I freely admit that I know very little about these 9mm/.40 S&W type guns. Bill Bidwell wanted to teach me how to do them a very long time ago and I passed. I still haven't figured out everything I want to know about 1911's! I have to say that he showed me one a couple of weeks ago and it was one of the best feeling pistols I have ever held. I can see why folks like them a lot. I almost got the Hi Power Bug! I think maybe I missed something along the line here, but it's too late now to teach this Old Dawg New tricks! I am a 45 Acp 1911 man and see no reason to change at this late stage in life.

March 13, 2005, 02:18 PM	#1
mattfra Member Join Date: July 3, 1999 Posts: 93	Restamping serial number on receiver...legal? I just refinished an East German Makarov for a friend using GunKote. The serial number is really hard to read due to it being originally stamped lightly. Would it be legal to "restamp" the serial number on a another part of the gun to kind of "confirm it" in case it ever came into question? Would that be considered defacing/altering a serial number in legal terms? Any ideas? Thanks. __________________ matt

March 13, 2005, 02:51 PM	#3
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,841	Contact the ATF. I don't tnink they would object if the #s were stamped on another part of the frame. It's obliterating the marks that gets them upset (but if you wanted to do so, you write first, ask permission and explain why as well as telling them your intent to restamp with the same #s and wait for response). __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

March 13, 2005, 09:01 PM	#5
mattfra Member Join Date: July 3, 1999 Posts: 93	Restamping serial number... Thanks for the replies fellas. I did remove some of the finish over the serial number by lightly rubbing with 000 steel wool dampened with acetone. The serial # shows up a little better. I think I'll remove a little more and then carefully mask over the serial number and respray that side of the frame. I sure would feel better with something more legible like under the trigger guard or someplace inconspicuous. I may just contact the ATFE too. Anyhow, thanks again!! __________________ matt

March 16, 2005, 06:12 PM	#6
Easy Money Junior Member Join Date: February 14, 2005 Posts: 8	Stamp number The BATF say you can restamp the number. But you CAN NOT stamp over the orgainaly numbers you have put them in another spot on the gun. I had to do this with some of the depts shotguns.

March 16, 2005, 08:03 PM	#7
mattfra Member Join Date: July 3, 1999 Posts: 93	Restamping serial number... Ok, thanks Easy Money. I've been looking at a "low rent" stamp set like for $11 @ Wholesale Tool in Charlotte which has letters and numerals. The steel on that Mak is hard. Would these cheapos leave their mark? __________________ matt

March 13, 2005, 02:29 PM	#2
Dfariswheel Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2001 Posts: 7,478	As I recall (Don't hold me to this), a gunsmith is allowed to re-stamp a serial number when an alteration to a gun makes the original stamping hard to see, OR obliterates it entirely. As far as I know, there is no reason the SAME number can't be stamped on another place on the same gun, since the original stamping isn't altered. In your case, as long as the original mark is intact, even if hard to see, you can stamp the same number as many times as you want, where you want, since you have NOT "defaced or altered" the original number.

March 13, 2005, 08:00 PM	#4
mete Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: NY State Posts: 6,575	Make sure the new stamp is done before touching the old one !!Otherwise there should be no problem ,gunsmiths do it .

March 17, 2005, 01:08 PM	#8
Dave Sample Junior member Join Date: December 10, 2004 Location: Prescott, AZ Posts: 1,002	Leave it alone. As long as the factory numbers show up there is no need to do anything. If you deface a reciever you are in for Big Fed Trouble. I had to destroy a 1911 WWI lower end because the serial number had been ground off. Why does this bother you? I am just trying to understand the new mind set in 2005, not looking for a flame. I will tell you this. I have an FFL and would NEVER re-stamp any reciever.

March 17, 2005, 01:27 PM	#9
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Nonetheless, Dave, the old ATTD did issue a Revenue Ruling on that. I can't find it now, but a letter should get a new one or a copy of the old one. The reason was that gunsmiths often have to polish a receiver to remove rust and that either the polish or the rust itself could go deep enough to partially or wholly remove a serial number. The ruling said that a gunsmith who obliterated a number in the process of refinishing could either restore the old serial number or apply to them for a new number to be assigned. IIRC, nothing was said about where the number was to be put, or that it couldn't be over the old one. I know of nothing in subsequent laws that would change that. I assume the ruling is still in effect since it was a formal Revenue Ruling, not just a letter on an individual case. Jim

March 17, 2005, 02:44 PM	#10
mattfra Member Join Date: July 3, 1999 Posts: 93	Restamping...... Ok, let me clarify why I pursued this in the first place. First of all it's my friend's Makarov. It's his lawful carry gun. He is just concerned if the S/N were ever looked at by law enforcement it would take too much effort to find. He was looking to have the S/N legible. It's an East German Mak and it looks like they used a nail to scribe the S/N so it wasn't deep to begin with. If it's not a big deal to restamp legally I will. I just didn't to give any impression whatsoever of trying to defraud/manipulate/deceive/deface etc..... __________________ matt

March 17, 2005, 05:26 PM	#11
novus collectus Junior member Join Date: March 15, 2005 Location: Maryland Posts: 940	Depending on when the makarov was imported it should have the importers stamp somwhere on the receiver. Give them a call and maybe (never tried myself, so a big maybe) they will tell you what you're allowed to do and maybe (big maybe) stamp it for your friend for free (except for shipping). But BATF is the only word I would trust.

March 18, 2005, 11:08 AM	#12
Dave Sample Junior member Join Date: December 10, 2004 Location: Prescott, AZ Posts: 1,002	I am sure Jim Is Right. There just certain things that I do not want any part of. I am not a "Worry Wort." Why does he not take it to his deopartment armorer and have it done of it bothers him?

March 21, 2005, 11:00 AM	#14
Dave Sample Junior member Join Date: December 10, 2004 Location: Prescott, AZ Posts: 1,002	I don't do Hi Powers. I have never been able to figure out how to hand checker them due to the configuation of the front strap which prevents the use of a standard checkering file. Perhaps some of the more experienced experts can explain to me how dey do dat? All the guys I know stipple them around the serial number.

March 21, 2005, 11:10 AM	#15
Tamara Moderator Emeritus Join Date: March 11, 2000 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 16,002	Don't ask me, Dave. Someone else drives the files, I just drive the Log Book. The fact that they are far more frequently stippled than checkered does seem to indicate that A) It must be a colossal pain in the buttocks, and B) There's the added hassle of moving the S/N. (Although I've also seen complete stippling coverage with the S/N moved elsewhere on the frame as well.) __________________ MOLON LABE! 2% Unobtainium, 98% Hypetanium. The Arms Room: An Online Museum.

March 21, 2005, 12:18 PM	#16
Dave Sample Junior member Join Date: December 10, 2004 Location: Prescott, AZ Posts: 1,002	I am sure you are right, Tamara. I know that you can EDM a Hi Power Front Strap or perhaps even machine checker it. Don Williams is one of the best Hi Power guys I know and I will get the straight dope from him next time I am out there. I freely admit that I know very little about these 9mm/.40 S&W type guns. Bill Bidwell wanted to teach me how to do them a very long time ago and I passed. I still haven't figured out everything I want to know about 1911's! I have to say that he showed me one a couple of weeks ago and it was one of the best feeling pistols I have ever held. I can see why folks like them a lot. I almost got the Hi Power Bug! I think maybe I missed something along the line here, but it's too late now to teach this Old Dawg New tricks! I am a 45 Acp 1911 man and see no reason to change at this late stage in life.