Long range .308 hunting load. - Page 3

Old Grump · March 24, 2011, 01:22 PM

Only a guess on my part but he is a wannabe cowboy who has no idea what 1000 yards looks like, especially through sights. Elk guide? 700 yard kill shots? Yup, you betcha.

**Unclenick** · March 25, 2011, 12:15 PM

Dakotdudepaul,

Some of the long VLD shapes can't be seated to magazine COL without the bearing surface (the cylindrical portion that is groove diameter) getting below the case mouth. That reduces grip on the bullet, leave the edge of the mouth vulnerable to indentation, and sets the bullet far enough in the case to reduce powder capacity, and thus velocity, which you really want to maximize for 1000 yard shooting. That's why you see Palma guns with 32" "broom handle" barrels.

The accuracy issue that comes up has to do with bullet alignment. A lot of VLD designs have secant ogives. This means the rounded taper of the nose departs the bearing surface at a sharper angle than the conventional tangent ogive does. This makes the VLD's pickier about being seated to an optimal depth. For example, M118LR sniper ammo is made with the tangent ogive Sierra 175 grain MatchKing because it's easier to keep the load accurate for all guns that way than with VLD's, which need really concentric seating. Anyone wishing to load VLD's should read this, from Berger, and be prepared to load singly, and not from a magazine.

Some years ago I read about a fellow who made an extremely long deer shot. I'm thinking it was about 1500-1600 yards. Like a lot of varmint shooters, he shot off a bench. Unlike the variable ranges of small varmint targets, he shot at a fixed, baited target position where he'd previously put up paper targets to learn the sight settings and local winds from his bench to that point. IIRC, think he had some kind of heavy custom rifle. I don't recall the chambering.

It's not my idea of hunting to create an artificial set of conditions like that, but I thought that, as an example, it reminded me it's easy to assume someone will be shooting conventional field positions, equipment, and conditions, when they actually may not intend to. No point in lecturing someone on the morality of attempting something they never intended to try in the first place. On the other hand, it's also a reminder that you want to get in adequate rehearsal on paper at the distances you expect to shoot before trying to take game at them. Setting up some paper deer targets in the actual settings you want to hunt in would pay off. Military snipers make 1000 yard shots with .308's from time to time, but they also have spotters and a lot of training.

reconcoupe · March 29, 2011, 03:33 AM

I have a a lot of experience with long range shooting, specially with .308/7.62. With a good shooter, the right round, the right rifle, the right conditions the .308 has adequate terminal ballistics to take down an elk at 1000 yards. But getting all those factors into one package while hunting, where Murphy's Law is just a prevalent as the military, would be next to impossible.

You always hear about US Army/USMC snipers making 1100 kill shots, but you never hear about all the misses at those ranges.

Further more, anyone wanting to make that distance shot hunting is more or less narcissistic. Really only wanting bragging rights. In the Army we make long range shots because 1- we have no choice, targets of opportunity provide very little time and rarely present themselves and 2- our targets shoot back, the further the distance, less likely the enemy will see you before and after the shot, and less likely that if they do see you, they'll miss you.

So, you want a 1000 yard kill to brag. Good Luck, but do us, the game animal, and yourself a favor, stalk that extra 400 yards, an make a reasonable shot.

V/R

Rangefinder · March 29, 2011, 12:21 PM

^^^LMAO!!^^^ I love your sig line...

reconcoupe · March 29, 2011, 01:45 PM

I'm glad you got a kick out of it, I'll be here all deployment.

Can't guarantee shows daily though.

Rangefinder · March 29, 2011, 01:51 PM

Well, if you've got your grass on right I won't see you anyway!

**Unclenick** · March 29, 2011, 03:45 PM

Since I don't smoke, it never occurred to me a cigarette might convert ghillie green growth camo to steaming dung pile camo. I suppose it wouldn't smell right unless the wearer were significantly disconcerted by the flames. There's got to be a patent in there somewhere.

Good sig line, and good luck in the heat.

5RWill · March 29, 2011, 05:37 PM

Theoretically speaking it would be humorous to be searching for an enemy sniper and all of a sudden he gets up running around on fire lol.

dakotadudepaul · January 2, 2012, 01:18 PM

Thanks for all the help. Just ended the hunting season here. Killed 9 big game animals with that rifle this year. Ended up going with varget and 175 gr burger vld. I built a load that was shooting .29 groups. Shot an elk at 550 and a deer at 503. Never got the chance to go long range. Thanks again Yall'

dakotadudepaul · January 2, 2012, 01:28 PM

pics

dakotadudepaul · January 2, 2012, 01:33 PM

elk pics

Rangefinder · January 2, 2012, 05:18 PM

Good looking animals--ought to be really tasty!

March 24, 2011, 01:22 PM	#51
Old Grump Member in memoriam Join Date: April 9, 2009 Location: Blue River Wisconsin, in Posts: 3,144	Only a guess on my part but he is a wannabe cowboy who has no idea what 1000 yards looks like, especially through sights. Elk guide? 700 yard kill shots? Yup, you betcha. __________________ Good intentions will always be pleaded for any assumption of power. The Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern will, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters. --Daniel Webster--

March 25, 2011, 12:15 PM	#52
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,060	Dakotdudepaul, Some of the long VLD shapes can't be seated to magazine COL without the bearing surface (the cylindrical portion that is groove diameter) getting below the case mouth. That reduces grip on the bullet, leave the edge of the mouth vulnerable to indentation, and sets the bullet far enough in the case to reduce powder capacity, and thus velocity, which you really want to maximize for 1000 yard shooting. That's why you see Palma guns with 32" "broom handle" barrels. The accuracy issue that comes up has to do with bullet alignment. A lot of VLD designs have secant ogives. This means the rounded taper of the nose departs the bearing surface at a sharper angle than the conventional tangent ogive does. This makes the VLD's pickier about being seated to an optimal depth. For example, M118LR sniper ammo is made with the tangent ogive Sierra 175 grain MatchKing because it's easier to keep the load accurate for all guns that way than with VLD's, which need really concentric seating. Anyone wishing to load VLD's should read this, from Berger, and be prepared to load singly, and not from a magazine. Some years ago I read about a fellow who made an extremely long deer shot. I'm thinking it was about 1500-1600 yards. Like a lot of varmint shooters, he shot off a bench. Unlike the variable ranges of small varmint targets, he shot at a fixed, baited target position where he'd previously put up paper targets to learn the sight settings and local winds from his bench to that point. IIRC, think he had some kind of heavy custom rifle. I don't recall the chambering. It's not my idea of hunting to create an artificial set of conditions like that, but I thought that, as an example, it reminded me it's easy to assume someone will be shooting conventional field positions, equipment, and conditions, when they actually may not intend to. No point in lecturing someone on the morality of attempting something they never intended to try in the first place. On the other hand, it's also a reminder that you want to get in adequate rehearsal on paper at the distances you expect to shoot before trying to take game at them. Setting up some paper deer targets in the actual settings you want to hunt in would pay off. Military snipers make 1000 yard shots with .308's from time to time, but they also have spotters and a lot of training. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

March 29, 2011, 03:33 AM	#53
reconcoupe Member Join Date: March 28, 2011 Location: It's HOT!!! Posts: 39	I have a a lot of experience with long range shooting, specially with .308/7.62. With a good shooter, the right round, the right rifle, the right conditions the .308 has adequate terminal ballistics to take down an elk at 1000 yards. But getting all those factors into one package while hunting, where Murphy's Law is just a prevalent as the military, would be next to impossible. You always hear about US Army/USMC snipers making 1100 kill shots, but you never hear about all the misses at those ranges. Further more, anyone wanting to make that distance shot hunting is more or less narcissistic. Really only wanting bragging rights. In the Army we make long range shots because 1- we have no choice, targets of opportunity provide very little time and rarely present themselves and 2- our targets shoot back, the further the distance, less likely the enemy will see you before and after the shot, and less likely that if they do see you, they'll miss you. So, you want a 1000 yard kill to brag. Good Luck, but do us, the game animal, and yourself a favor, stalk that extra 400 yards, an make a reasonable shot. V/R __________________ "You can smoke in your ghillie suit if you want, but I'm not peeing on you when you BBQ yourself." Remark over heard at US Army Sniper School 05-05 Last edited by reconcoupe; March 29, 2011 at 03:36 AM. Reason: My grammar sucks

March 29, 2011, 12:21 PM	#54
Rangefinder Senior Member Join Date: August 4, 2005 Posts: 2,017	^^^LMAO!!^^^ I love your sig line... __________________ "Why is is called Common Sense when it seems so few actually possess it?" Guns only have two enemies: Rust and Politicians.

March 29, 2011, 01:45 PM	#55
reconcoupe Member Join Date: March 28, 2011 Location: It's HOT!!! Posts: 39	I'm glad you got a kick out of it, I'll be here all deployment. Can't guarantee shows daily though. __________________ "You can smoke in your ghillie suit if you want, but I'm not peeing on you when you BBQ yourself." Remark over heard at US Army Sniper School 05-05

March 29, 2011, 01:51 PM	#56
Rangefinder Senior Member Join Date: August 4, 2005 Posts: 2,017	Well, if you've got your grass on right I won't see you anyway! __________________ "Why is is called Common Sense when it seems so few actually possess it?" Guns only have two enemies: Rust and Politicians.

March 29, 2011, 03:45 PM	#57
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,060	Since I don't smoke, it never occurred to me a cigarette might convert ghillie green growth camo to steaming dung pile camo. I suppose it wouldn't smell right unless the wearer were significantly disconcerted by the flames. There's got to be a patent in there somewhere. Good sig line, and good luck in the heat. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

March 29, 2011, 05:37 PM	#58
5RWill Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2008 Location: Mississippi Posts: 2,654	Theoretically speaking it would be humorous to be searching for an enemy sniper and all of a sudden he gets up running around on fire lol. __________________ Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me."

January 2, 2012, 01:18 PM	#59
dakotadudepaul Member Join Date: March 13, 2011 Posts: 15	Thanks for all the help. Just ended the hunting season here. Killed 9 big game animals with that rifle this year. Ended up going with varget and 175 gr burger vld. I built a load that was shooting .29 groups. Shot an elk at 550 and a deer at 503. Never got the chance to go long range. Thanks again Yall'

January 2, 2012, 05:18 PM	#62
Rangefinder Senior Member Join Date: August 4, 2005 Posts: 2,017	Good looking animals--ought to be really tasty! __________________ "Why is is called Common Sense when it seems so few actually possess it?" Guns only have two enemies: Rust and Politicians.