Scenario #1

[Hansen]

I use these incidents to get people thinking about them. I don't bash the incidents at all, but rather have people think about getting into things just to be a hero or what ever. Sometimes not getting involved is the best thing to do. I see threads talking about scenarios so I thought I would throw a few on.

John

Scenario # 1
The scenario’s based on a true incidents:


A man exiting his car at a neighborhood store, the man came in contact with 3 gang members. One of the gang members recognized him as a witness in one of his court cases in the past. The man stated that they were mistaken and walked into the store to complete his business. While inside the store, the man saw the gang members return to their car and retrieve baseball bats. The gang members raced into the store and rushed toward the man saying something about how they were going to ‘give out some of their own criminal justice”. The man pulled out his own 6 shot revolver and pointed it at the approaching gang members. The man yelled for the gang members to stop, but they kept approaching. The man, fearing that his own weapon would be taken from him and used against him fired off shots into a adjacent wall and threw his weapon under a rack of potato chips. The man then fought back using his hands & feet until he was knocked unconscious. Fortunately for the man he was not killed and later fully recovered from his ordeal.


1. What if anything would you have done differently?


2. Was deadly force justified in this incident?


3. Could this have been prevented?

[newarcher]

To answer your questions:

1. What if anything would you have done differently?

A. Quit drinking
B. Never stopped if I saw them milling about in the first place.
C. Immediately left (if I could) without entering the store after confronted.
D. Told the clerk to call 911 when I got in the store
E. Tried to find an alternate way out once inside.
F. If A-D failed to help, I would have shot the lead gang banger once in the chest and once in the face.
G. If the others kept coming, I would have shot them too

Why the hell have a gun if--when the chips are down--you shoot potato chips and walls? This man doesn't need to be carrying....he could have ricocheted into an innocent while acting like an imbecile.


2. Was deadly force justified in this incident?

Yes, absolutely. If not in this case, when? Doesn't the outcome dictate that deadly force was justified? They came into a place of business after him....


3. Could this have been prevented?

Only if he followed 1B above.


New

[Hansen]

I should have added that any place of business could be used.

I am going to edit it now....

[Trip20]

Originally Posted by Hansen

The man pulled out his own shot revolver...

"own shot revolver"?

Or did you mean "one shot revolver"? (which still doesn't make sense).

[Hansen]

6 shot, i must have deleted it when posted it.

[Prophet]

1. I would have shot all three of them you have witness and probably a survalence camera in the store. Show that to the jury no one in their right mind would convict a man defending himself against 3 armed suspects.

2. Of course it was.

3. Maybe, If I was confronted like he was I would have found another store to go to but then while you are leaving they could attack you from behind so with these kind of cowards its a lose lose.

[Trip20]

Originally Posted by Hansen

1. What if anything would you have done differently?

I would have defended my life.

Originally Posted by Hansen

2. Was deadly force justified in this incident?

Once confronted with what a reasonable person would assume is 3 attackers, at least one of which armed with a baseball bat, who appear intent on causing harm or death... yes deadly force is justified.

Originally Posted by Hansen

3. Could this have been prevented?

The assault may have been prevented had he used the firearm instead of throwing it at some potatoe chips.

Buf if you're questioning if the entire scenario could have been prevented, well sure, if one had decided not to stop due to viewing some unsavory characters in front of the store. Or if one had left immediately after the first verbal confrontation outside the store, provided there was an opportune time to do so.

[Prophet]

BTW trip what does that mean in your sig. I saw it on a car window the other day. Just wondering.

[obxned]

I would have left the area and shopped somewhere else. If I had been dumb enough to go inside the store and these cockroaches had come after me, then I'm the Orkin Man!

[ZeSpectre]

First best choice... U-Turn and LEAVE.

If that wasn't the path taken then realize that the thugs coming at you have voiced a threat and have...
Means - Baseball bats
Motive - Revenge
Opportunity - Within reach of you and closing

This is plenty to deem this a creditable threat and it's self defense time.

If you are thinking clearly enough to do so, shoot the leader first.

[BillCA]

Do differently?

The option to return to my car and leave is possible, provided it isn't very far away. But assuming that one enters the store and observes them going to the trunk of their car...
a) Tell the clerk - "call 911! I think those guys are gonna kill us!"
b) Look for a secondary exit and use it.
c) If no easy exit, find the door to the back room and use it to funnel the attackers and prevent them from flanking you.
d) Draw your weapon and prepare to defend yourself.
e) Keep an eye on the counter clerk as he may need your help at some point too.

Deadly force justified?
Absolutely. Known criminal street gang members, armed with "deadly weapons", 3-to-1 odds, uttering threats with the means, motive and opportunity to kill you. It doesn't get much clearer than that!

Prevention:
Only by retreat to your car and leaving the area OR by drawing your weapon at the first sign of them arming themselves, taking a "barricade" position at the doorway so that when they start towards the store, you're already "on target" and can persuade them that it's unwise to bring a baseball bat to a gunfight.

[Trip20]

Prophet -- PM sent as to not de-rail the topic.

[The Biker]

Three agressive men with bats? Shoot the closest one first then work down the line. One shot apiece with seconds served up as needed. No reason to harm the 'tater chips - they aren't a threat. I know what a man with a bat can do. Used 'em myself.
What does drinking have to do with anything?

Biker

[crankshop1000]

YES!!!!!!! Having already been alerted to the fact that the gang may have an axe to grind with him, he was condition orange.The approaching thugs with ball bats represented an immediate threat to his life. He should have drawn his weapon, issued a warning to stop (if there was time) requested someone call 911 (if there was time) and then shoot to stop the thugs starting with the closest one first.Fire until the threat is stopped. Waited for police and give a brief statement to the effect that he was in fear for his life and used his weapon to keep from getting beaten to death. Requested to be taken to a hospital because he wasn't feeling well from the trauma (good time to collect his thoughts before getting grilled) and go from there.He probably was a poor choice for a CCW because he seems to have lacked the fortitude to handle the responsibility of using and controlling his weapon.Chuck.

[don_hamer]

Newarcher seems to have a good grip on how I would have dealt with that situation.

[Cyrgelman]

First best choice... U-Turn and LEAVE.

If that wasn't the path taken then realize that the thugs coming at you have voiced a threat and have...
Means - Baseball bats
Motive - Revenge
Opportunity - Within reach of you and closing

This is plenty to deem this a creditable threat and it's self defense time.

If you are thinking clearly enough to do so, shoot the leader first.

+1

[Doug.38PR]

The man, fearing that his own weapon would be taken from him and used against him fired off shots into a adjacent wall and threw his weapon under a rack of potato chips. The man then fought back using his hands & feet until he was knocked unconscious.

That was stupid. Shoot them! They are attacking you with deadly force and have you outnumbered. Shoot them down, then they definately won't be able to take your gun away and use it against you. Sounds like the guy got scared and his fear took control. Unable to pull the trigger.
If you see these are thugs that are going to cause trouble beforehand, don't go shopping, go into the store and get the police there ASAP. If they arrive while they are getting bats and are walking in the store, you have backup.
I wouldn't run. They might be able to run faster than you. The more distance they have between you and them if you do have to pull your gun the better

[Samurai]

Assuming all else is true, and we've arrived at the point of the charging gang members:

Step 1: "Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! Click! Click! Click!"

Step 2: Retrieve ball bat. Check dead bodies for weapons. Take weapons, if any.

Step 3: Run like the dickens.

Step 4: Go home.

Step 5: Call lawyer.

Step 6: Do whatever lawyer says.

[Doug.38PR]

Samurai, aren't steps 3 & 4 considered fleeing the scene?

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Fire 6 shots into my head to prevent the clerk from suing me for scaring him by shooting into the wall.

[Doug.38PR]

or to prevent 6 more people on the other side of that wall from suing me (or their families) for recklessness with a firearm.

[ohioleadslinger]

a) Tell the clerk - "call 911! I think those guys are gonna kill us!"
b) Look for a secondary exit and use it.
c) If no easy exit, find the door to the back room and use it to funnel the attackers and prevent them from flanking you.
d) Draw your weapon and prepare to defend yourself.
e) Keep an eye on the counter clerk as he may need your help at some point too.

BillCA has it right. I have some slight modifications to that excellent reaction.

Emphasis on the word us you would be be surprised how when a person thinks they are also the intended victim they will take part in the effort to stop it or at least make a call. Same as saying FIRE instead of help rape or I'm being robbed.
Look for that means of exit, but I would add don't turn your back on the threat.
Making the most of your bad situation if no exit , making "The Fatal Funnel".
My weapon would have been drawn when they went for the bat's.
I'm keeping an eye on the counter not just to help, but I don't know how that clerk is going to react to the situation. He may also be carrying or he may just freak out and panic.

[easyG]

I would have shot them.

Those kind of situations are the very reason to carry a gun in the first place.

Three men attacking you with baseball bats is certainly reasonable cause to use deadly force.
I would be willing to take my chances with a jury here in the Carolinas.

[jfrey123]

I don't understand the mentality of just "leaving" when you see people in a parking lot who look menacing. I'm not saying you should go into a biker bar with a sweater around your neck and start fights, but what real reason should I have to leave a place I intend to do business with just because some people in the parking lot look really mean??

I think most will agree with the concept of using your weapon effectively. I can't see a reason why deadly defensive force wouldn't be allowable here. I wouldn't use any warning shots here, just draw and announce your intentions to defend yourself. Let them make the choice on meeting their maker. This is the best way of keeping your weapon from being use back on you... Throwing your weapon away should never be an option!

+1 to telling the store clerk to call 911 when you see these thugs approaching.

[sm]

1. What if anything would you have done differently?

Engage without engaging.
Meaning I would have left.
If followed, I would headed for the first Police Station/ Sub station/ Squad car I spotted and laid on the horn.
Fire Station works too.


2. Was deadly force justified in this incident?
Yes.

3. Could this have been prevented?

While situational awareness may have, one cannot be in a constant state of Yellow.
Folks get surprised. Life happens.

20-20 hindsight is always clearer.
If one is older, or suspects they are "in danger" (jury duty for instance) they could have groceries, prescriptions, dry cleaning or whatever delivered from whatever store for instance.

Ask another accompany them...