Measuring powder

[Wlofton]

I just started in reloading and what a start. I removed 55 primers out of .223 then got a brass stuck. Then I said heck I'll practice measuring powder well I got the Lees 50th anniversary kit and learned the balance scale and then the powder dispenser is another story.

I got RCBS SB dies to work with.

Thinking a digital scale and a trickle powder thing would be a help.

What y'all think?




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[oldengineer]

I have a Dillon DTerminator digital scale that is good but I like to use my RCBS 5-0-5 beam scale with a Franklin Arsenal powder trickler to get accurate measurements for rifle loads. The Dillon is good but isn't sensitive enough to get good readings when trickling a small amount of powder.

[Wlofton]

Originally Posted by oldengineer

I have a Dillon DTerminator digital scale that is good but I like to use my RCBS 5-0-5 beam scale with a Franklin Arsenal powder trickler to get accurate measurements for rifle loads. The Dillon is good but isn't sensitive enough to get good readings when trickling a small amount of powder.

Thanks for your input. This is a great site thanks to people like u.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[surveyor]

I started with the lee scale.
I quickly replaced it with a dillon beam scale, or a 505 .

I set the powder measure to throw a little light, and trickled up.
(Rifle loads with stick powder)
Had lee perfect powder measure, lyman 55, and a older ideal measure.
Ball powders metered better, than stick powder for me.

Next progression was after I had to load a couple hundred loads for a event I went to,(stick powder again), a rcbs chargemaster was bought after that.
No further upgrades planned.

I still use the dillon beam scale for checking loads and setting up case activated powder measures on the progressive press.

The lee scale was given away to someone without a scale.

[Wlofton]

Originally Posted by surveyor

I started with the lee scale.

I quickly replaced it with a dillon beam scale, or a 505 .



I set the powder measure to throw a little light, and trickled up.

(Rifle loads with stick powder)

Had lee perfect powder measure, lyman 55, and a older ideal measure.





Next progression was after I had to load a couple hundred loads for a event I went to, a rcbs chargemaster was bought after that.

No further upgrades planned.



I still use the dillon beam scale for checking loads and setting up case activated powder measures on the progressive press.



The lee scale was given away to someone without a scale.

Thanks friend


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mauser69]

I just started in reloading and what a start. I removed 55 primers out of .223 then got a brass stuck. Then I said heck I'll practice measuring powder well I got the Lees 50th anniversary kit and learned the balance scale and then the powder dispenser is another story.

I got RCBS SB dies to work with.

Thinking a digital scale and a trickle powder thing would be a help.

What y'all think?

I think you actually need to READ a couple of reloading manuals, then start over. Ask questions when you have the ability to understand the answers because you know the basics.

[Wlofton]

Originally Posted by Mauser69

I think you actually need to READ a couple of reloading manuals, then start over. Ask questions when you have the ability to understand the answers because you know the basics.

Yea ok


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Reloadron]

I believe the Lee 50th Anniversary Kit includes the basic Lee Safety Scale and powder throw. While neither tool is quite high end they do work with patience and practice. If or when the wallet allows it is nice to move up in quality. A good balance beam is hard to beat as to accurate and more important repeatable and the same is true for a good powder throw or dispenser.

The need for small base dies is questionable and finding a good case lube and technique takes a little time. A good lube and developing good case sizing habits will prevent those stuck cases which are not at all fun. You can roll your own case lube using any of dozens of online recipes or use an off the shelf solution. I like the little RCBS pump spray bottles.

The new reloading enthusiast will have setbacks but just keep with it and the learning curve will flatten out over time. Read books, I can't stress that enough. Most hand loading manuals have the best material in the front before the load data.

Ron

[robhic]

If you are using the LEE PERFECT POWDER MEASURE, I'm with you there! I couldn't make heads or tails of the measuring system using volume (I suck at math, too...). I use a strictly trial-and-error method of setting the measure.

Guess, check weight, up or down depending, dump powder back in hopper and try again until you get it right. Time consuming, yes, but it seems to hold very accurately when it's set. And really doesn't take too long to find the right grain weight.

For the scale, LEE too, and I found it a bit confusing at first. Slide the right hand (small) poise weight to the grams (after getting the steel ball set for the major adjustment for larger loads) and then that little slider until the 1/10 grain is centered and the narrow slots (above) center on the number you want with the slide's right and left slot on either side of the 1/10 measure you're trying for. I take the beam off to set 'cause it's to see and do then replace.

It is accurate and holds the measure well while using it. Don't forget to zero the scale before EACH use. You'll do fine!

[T. O'Heir]

A digital scale is easier to read. Which one doesn't matter much. Best you buy a digital Vernier too if you haven't already. Have one of those and you have all the case length/OAL gauges you'll ever need. They can be locked at whatever the trim-to is and used as a go/no-go case length/OAL gauge.
Powder tricklers are great things when you're working up loads.
You probably don't need the SB die. They size the case a few thou more than a regular FL die. Doesn't hurt anything though.

[Unclenick]

Whether or not you need the SB die usually comes down to whether or not you are having to resize once-fired brass that went through a full-auto weapon. If the ammo all went through your weapon originally it is very unusual to require a small base die, though every once in awhile you run into someone with an AR or AR clone that insists that even its own brass go through a small base die or it won't feed reliably; but this is unusual. Small base dies squeeze the brass harder, so it is easier to stick a case, as you've apparently discovered. They are also working the brass harder, so it won't last through as many reloadings. However, for now it is what you have, so I wouldn't spend anything on another die until you have refined your technique and have grown used to how everything flows.

If you are using Lee's case lube only, I recommend you apply a thin layer and let it dry, then apply a thin layer of STP oil treatment (less than $2 at Walmart). The two working together will pretty well guarantee cases don't get stuck.

As far as powder dispensing, the idea is to be able to set up the powder measure with the scale, then return to the same settings on the measure for loads in the future. How well this works varies with the powder. You have the Lee Perfect Powder Measure in your kit. It's a perfectly good measure for stick rifle powders and for coarse grained spherical propellants like H380 (a .30-06 powder originally). For fine spherical powders people complain that the grains seep into the drum bearing area on the Perfect measure, and cause jams, so be prepared to disassemble and un-jam the measure if you are doing this.

For stick powders, be prepared that the Perfect will be dispensing plus or minus a couple of tenths of a grain most of the time, and occasionally a little more. With stick powder this matters less than you might suppose. That is, heavier throws from the measure are heavier because they are packed down more tightly in the metering chamber, and stick powders generally burn a little more slowly when they are packed tighter, so it is a self-compensating error to some extent. Dispensing and then trickling-up doesn't always result in lowest velocity variation for this reason. That is, the packing density difference may compensate better than the trickling does.

It also may not. It depends on how all the components are interacting. You really need a chronograph to tell if your trickling efforts are getting you better results or are increasing variation. So, if you are using a stick powder, I wouldn't go to all the trouble of trickling before you own a chronograph.

Just set up the measure. Use the Lee VMD system to get close. You look up their VMD number for the powder you are using, multiply it times the charge weight you want and the result is the number of CC's you set the measure to. Set the measure to that number of CC's. Then dispense at least three charges that you return to the powder hopper to settle the measure down.

Next, dispense a charge and put it on the scale. It won't likely be exactly right, but adjust the counterpoise weights until you know what it actually is. Take the difference between what you wanted and what you got. Again, multiply by Lee's VMD number for your powder and you get the number of CC's of adjustment to make on the powder measure. This second iteration should be very close. Reset the scale to your target charge. Dispense and weigh ten charges and take the average value you get. You should be close enough to just use the graduations on the pointer scale to measure errors that are plus or minus. That is close enough. You don't need to re-tweak the counterpoise weights for each throw. If the average is still off, multiply the error by the VMD to get the second adjustment to the powder measure.

At this point you probably won't need to adjust any further. The reason for always checking the result of your adjustments is to be sure you didn't turn the adjustment knob the wrong way. If you did, the weight will be off enough to need further adjustment of the scale counterpoise to read it.

At that point I would just use the measure to dispense your powder. Again, until you own a chronograph you can't be sure trickling is helping or not, so I wouldn't bother. Don't go for the hottest load. Start at the very bottom of the range of loads in the load data and work up until you find the most accurate load. That's the one you want. A super fast load that misses doesn't do as much good as a slower one that hits where it is supposed to.

[jetinteriorguy]

An easy way to roughly set your powder measure up is to first set up the scale for the weight of your starting load, then add powder to the scale until it balances. Then screw the powder measure open enough to hold the powder charge. Do this with the drum removed from the powder measure. Then add the powder, screw the adjustable part up until the powder charge is level with the face of the drum, dump it out, and then install the drum back in the body. Now it should be a matter of just a slight adjustment to throw a charge that's dead on.

[Unclenick]

That may work fairly well with a spherical powder, but with a stick powder it is hard to duplicate the exact packing density caused by vibrating the powder hopper, so I don't expect it to be any more accurate than just multiplying the desired weight by the VMD in Lee's table and just setting the number of CC's on the powder measure to that result. It should also be a good deal faster.

Some powders have a good deal more variation in bulk density from lot-to-lot than others do, in addition to the packing problem. But using the tables usually gets you within 5%. You can correct the VMD error from the weight error of that first shot, so your correction is exact. If the first shot is, say, 3% too light, then the VMD is too small for your lot of powder by 3%, and vice versa.

[RC20]

I go back a long ways reloading, I had a 505 scale to start with and for small scale reloading (hunting and pistol for target) it was ok and back then the only option (and it seemed like I had more time, not sure why)

Fast forward, I now load upwards of 150 rounds for a range session (I don't always shoot them all but I have on a nice long warm day)

I first got the Frankfurth digigial.

One it is easy to use and quicker than the beam scale
I judt undermeasure and truckle up to what I want.

Two its a handy thing to have, find a bullet on the floor, onto the digitial and bango, ita 175. Not sure if a case has a powder load in it or mis measured, bingo, onto the scale, weight, compare it to a coupel others, if its bad it will stick out like a sore thumb.

Try that on a beam! Those were ok for wrestling weight in as you had a pretty good diea where to set them, bit weights, bar at the right height and all that.

On a small reloading beams, ergh. Did I say time seems to be slipping away? I can't remember (grin)

Ok, fast foware, the Frnafurht got cranky but that was ok, I got it low cost and it proved the conept. THe next one was bad out of the box and I misplaced the receipt, ok as well, got it on sale, no real loss.

I then moved up a bit to a Hoarndy 1500. I liked it but a bit awaed.

I don't wanto take up a lot of room on the bench as its mutli use (well it will be when I get ti cleaned up again>0

Lyman has a pretty neat one that is large, easy to see, touch screen buttons (more on that in a minute). It also has a build on powder tricler.

I got it, scale is good, tricker takes a bit of getting gused to but a nice bomto. Not as smooth as the old metal ones. But it works pretty well, kind of a poor mans auto chargers.

Now, the caveat, and it sounds a lot more complex than it is.

First you calibrate it, then you weight your powerd pan and note the weight (I put it on the pan with a sharpie, it wears off after a while, one of thse days when I find some time I will just put it on the shelf in front of me (time seems to be a problem darn it, or is it the moery thing?)

Now, scales drift. So far they all have. Lyman claims drift correction, not sure how far it drifts, not sure I care,

As soon as it drifts no more than 2 tenth off the pan weight (you see it when you remove the pan)

So, example. My pan weights 144.8 grains. That is also a calibration check.
As the powder charges are far less, its a good one.

Scale drifts up to 144.9 when I have the pan off, that correlates to a .1 grain change. Ok, charges are not that picky. Then it goes to 145.0. Ok,

ZERO it again with the pan on.

It should go back to 144.8, maybe 144.9 as that seems to be on the edge.

Just keep an eye on it, when it drifts, zero it.

If you see it go lower, do the same. So far almost all the time the drift is up and not down.

Soon its habit and I would not give up the digital scales for love nor money.

The Hornady is the backup because I can't stand to go back to the beam.

I am pretty hide bound and traditional (ask my wife!) but sometimes they do invent a much better mouse trap and digital scale is it (IMNSHO)

I am probably almost as fast as a Chargmeaster. Yep, a bit of money into what I want and the learning curve, but its been worth it.

[Metal god]

Originally Posted by Unclenick

Dispensing and then trickling-up doesn't always result in lowest velocity variation for this reason. That is, the packing density difference may compensate better than the trickling does.

It also may not. It depends on how all the components are interacting. You really need a chronograph to tell if your trickling efforts are getting you better results or are increasing variation. So, if you are using a stick powder, I wouldn't go to all the trouble of trickling before you own a chronograph.

Maybe I read that wrong but to me that says . If using stick powder it does not really matter if your charge weights are accurate . There's no need to get exact measurements . How is it ever not a good idea to measure you charges perfect ? I understand the point but to say "you don't really need to worry about inconsistent charge weights until you get a chrono" seems odd .

How does one separate/distinguish the differences in velocity if you have both variables happening at the same time ? How do you know the inconsistent velocity is powder density when you also have inconsistent powder charges at the same time ? I'd think you'd want to use check weights on your scale of the weight you intend to load . Then load each cartridge to the exact same charge . This then rules out charge weight being a possible cause of your inconsistent velocities if any come up . Why is having two variables in test results a good thing when one of them is easily removed from the equation ?

[Unclenick]

What weighing does is put the same amount of potential energy in the case each time. What burn rate does is decide how fast that energy is released, thereby determining peak pressure. If you are trying to control peak pressure, velocity, and barrel time, these factors don't always play nicely together in stick powders, but other times do very well.

If the powder burns faster, you need less of it to reach a given pressure. Just look at loads for fast and slow powders to verify this trend. There are exceptions because energy content per grain varies among powder formulations just as bulk density does, but when the fast and slow charges are the same powder, energy content is constant.

A couple of examples: I think it was the late Dan Hackett who described a stick powder load that worked great when he loaded it at home, but which caused sticky bolt lift when he loaded it at the range to the same charge weight. So he had the same potential energy, it's just that he got this high pressure sign when he loaded it at the range. He cross-checked his equipment and calibration and verified this was true. He finally figured out that the load he put together at home was packing down some due to vibration in his vehicle when he drove it to the range. Same charge weight, same powder, different pressures due to different burn rates due to loose or tight packing.


Stick Powders can pack considerably; spherical propellants not so much.



Another is an oldie but goody from Hatcher. In the late 20's he was selecting a powder for the National Match ammunition for the year. He said he had two powders that had about the same nominal burn rates as the more modern IMR4320 does. One was a short stick powder that the arsenal powder metering equipment could dispense to ±0.30 grains precision. The other was a coarse stick the arsenal equipment could only dispense to ±0.85 grains. Yet, in testing that coarse stick with the sloppy charge, it proved to produce better accuracy than the more precisely metered finer stuff did, so the coarse powder was used that year.

The reason for the better accuracy is going to be the tendency of the coarse powder to self-compensate by changing burn rate with packing density in a way that was better tuned to the .30-06 with 173 grain bullet than the fine powder's compensation was one was. Why? Happenstance. Hatcher said he caught flak from a competitor at the National Matchesho had pulled some of the ammo and found the charge weight variation too great for his liking, and declared the ammo was no good. Several new records were fired with it that year.

So you can see stick powders can self-compensate, but don't necessarily do so in a way that matches your chambering and bullet choice. The chronograph will give you an indication of that. Obviously, just seeing which load shoots more accurately will do that, too (which I failed to mention), but you may need to do a good bit of load work-up shooting at longer ranges to pick it out that way. Hatcher was running 100 round machine rest grouping tests at 600 and 1000 yards.