Vietnam tunnel rat handguns

[salvadore]

1 old 0311-1, were you in I corp during Lan Son 719?

[nate45]

I would use 1911a1 too, back then. If they let me I'd take my Model 19 no dash, for a bug, I'd carry it too. Wear the Model 19 in an across the chest holster and the 1911a1 in a flap, but for sure the 1911a1 would stay in my hand most of the time, if I was down in a tunnel.

My current weapons are the same things I'd use in WWII, Korea, or Viet Nam, except in Korea and WWII the Combat Magnum would have been a N-Frame, or maybe even something small like a Police Positive, or j-frame like a Model, 60 in the Viet Nam era, or nowadays a 642.

My Grandfather was an Army Ranger 1st Lieutenant in WW2. I'm pretty sure all he had was a knife and 1911a1 for his up close and back up weapons. He even had a hand made knife, because at the time he went to the Pacific Theater, K-Bars and things like that were scarce. He had a double edged dagger, that was made by Naval Armorers. It was the same one they made for Navy Raiders and Combat Demolition Units.




The weapons that were available during Vietnam Conflict, are still viable. My .308 M1 and Rem 700 still work. However, they'd work better combined into one, in the form of an AR10 with optics. Right now in 2012, instead of a 1911a1 my Glock 19, or 20 with light mounted would be better, especially for going into a confined space, looking for enemy combatants.

[nate45]

Or instead of a Glock 20 with a light on it. I could take my Sig and 4Sevens flashlight. The light has a 4 Lumen Moonlight setting and the Sig has night sights. I could find them stealthily, then bilnd them with the 205 lumen setting, or strobe while I was shooting the _____ out of them.



Nah, if the government was paying, I'd want night vision and an MP5. With that Glock 20 for back up, or in the chance you couldn't wiggle through with the MP5 in front of you. Wait, wait stop the presses. How about a killer tunnel drone robot and I'll control it with a camera like a video game. I could be in an under ground nuclear resistant bunker miles away.

[PT-92]

I would just like to say THANKS much and Happy Holidays to our Vietnam Vets!

I also thought that the 1911 was the primary gun for the job.

ETA: I thought I read where the Browning Hi Power was said to have served this role (I can't seem to find the link at the moment...)

[SIGSHR]

I read a story about 40 years ago of the SPQR-Special Purpose Quiet Revolver-a N frame S&W with a 2" barrel using special rounds loaded with buckshot, the ammunition was designed with a retaining plate so the noise and explosion of the powder was contained with in the case. I asked about in this forum years ago, recall an answer by Dfarishwheel who said they were not sucessful.

[johnwilliamson062]

"It was the issue of hearing protection in particular that made me suppose there were indeed other firearms than the 1911 involved,"

In 2007 I knew of a unit doing live fire exercises in a block basement without hearing protection. With M4s. I doubt they worried at all in Vietnam.

I'd imagine suppressors didn't do well if dragged through the mud as described above.

I am also a little surprised they didn't have the Nagant available. Had to be a few of them in US possession and as overcomplicated as the design is it is a lot simpler and reliable than some of the modified revolvers described above. Of course, the 7.62 Nagant round doesn't compare to a 44 mag and probably doesn't outpower the 25 ACP by much.

[kraigwy]

It was the issue of hearing protection in particular that made me suppose there were indeed other firearms than the 1911 involved,

I can tell you the last thing in the world you were worried about was hearing protection. You'll didn't hear the gun going off anyway. Other things to think about and I'm not too asshamed to admit, being scared S*** Less was number one.

But thinking back on it, I would suspect the soft mud would soak up much of the muzzle blast.

[shafter]

Vietnam was way before my time but I would suspect that most carried a 1911A1 although I'm sure a wide variety of weapons made their way into the tunnels by various individuals. I can't think of much else that was available at the time that I would rather have. A 357 magnum would come in close second and if high capacity Glocks were around I'd probably go for one of those.

[44 AMP]

SIGSHR, I also read about that revolver project. It was a .44mag chambering, with the special ammo you described. However, I think you got the initials in the wrong order. I'm just going from memory here, but I think it was QSPR.

SPQR is what's on top of a Roman Legion's standard....IIRC

[egor20]

Smith & Wesson / AAI Quiet Special Purpose Revolver / QSPR / tunnel revolver (USA)



http://world.guns.ru/handguns/double...evolver-e.html

Thats one ugly revolver.

[SDC]

I've got a copy of the US Army's "Concept Team" report on the Tunnel weapon, issued in 1970. This is the "44 Magnum" spoken of and seen above, a S&W M29 that was heavily modified to accept a machined-steel 15-pellet shot cartridge, and which was internally silenced by using a sliding piston inside the case (between the powder and the shot payload). The cartridges were loaded from the rear of the case, with the powder charge added after the payload and piston were in place, and then the primer (inside a separate piece) was screwed into place from the bottom. On firing, the piston was thrown forward, forcing the shot payload out of the cartridge and through the smooth barrel, but sealing the gas inside the case.
They had five of these revolvers made for testing in RVN, and almost 500 of the cartridges that went with them, and they were field-tested beginning in 1967, with the 1st, 25th, and Americal Divisions. They were apparently well-received, but all users reported wanting a lanyard added so they could hang them around their necks when they wanted both hands free. The biggest problem they found with these was the ammunition; 75% of users reported at least one misfire in service, but some of those rounds would go off on the second or third strike. Here are some of the photos included in the report:

Revolver and ammo:


Holster and ammo carriers:
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p...3/Holster.jpeg

[Redhawk5.5+P+]

lamarw #9

Our unit used a Catepillar D-7. We were a jungle clearing unit with 30 D-7s and had periods reflected in our SITREPs of either uncovering or covering over 60 tunnels a day.

Were those the ones with the bullet proof front blades?

[SDC]

Simonrichter, if you're interested in this particular aspect of the Vietnam war, there's a book called "The Tunnels of Cu Chi" that you might want to look up; the author was with one of the "tunnel rat" units, and he reports what the fighting was like, the booby traps that they ran into, and the weapons that were used. He says that one of the people he knew preferred using an M2 Carbine (full-auto) with the stock cut down to the pistol-grip and the barrel cut down to the barrel band, on the grounds that even if he didn't hit what he was firing at, it would scare them badly enough that it would give him time to get back out of the tunnel and block it with C4.

[5thShock]

Scroll down to post#18, post says it was still being used.


http://www.smithandwessonforums.com/...pistols-2.html

[simonrichter]

Thanks for the interesting informations.

btw I love this forum, in case I didN't mention that before.

[PT-92]

egor20

Smith & Wesson / AAI Quiet Special Purpose Revolver / QSPR / tunnel revolver (USA)

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/double...evolver-e.html

Thats one ugly revolver.

Looks like my Dad's old Colt Det. Special (no offense intended )...?