Lethality of Birdshot

AlKillya · January 25, 2010, 05:06 PM

I'm a believer of you train with what you use. If I plan on shooting Buckshot, I train with Buckshot. If I plan on shooting high grain 9mm, that's what I take to the range, etc.

Now, there's no argument that in an emergency if killing power is needed Buckshot is superior. And I will always keep some Buckshot in my gunsafe. However, it is expensive, especially to train with.

If I have to use a type of Birdshot to train, I also would like it to be lethal in a home defense situation if it ever came down to it. So looking at a home defense scenario, using Birdshot anywhere from 10-17ft, where penetrating a wall is not an issue, what Birdshot is lethal (if any)? Or what is a cheaper alternative I may not of thought of?

hogdogs · January 25, 2010, 05:13 PM

At the short distance you mention, it is quite likely to be lethal... however the possibility of it not stopping the threat post haste is too great for me to worry with.

Cheap buck shot is +/- $10 bucks for 15 rounds and suits me fine, goes BANG when I need it to.
Brent

AlKillya · January 25, 2010, 05:30 PM

Hogdogs

Which Birdshot would you recommend? Would Lead #4 shot be fine.

$10 for 15 rounds?!
I have to pay $7 for just 5 rounds of 2 3/4in. buckshot.

Uncle Ben · January 25, 2010, 05:37 PM

It's about $6 for 5 rounds of 00 buckshot for me locally, yet I can get 25 rounds of birdshot/target loads for the same $6. I agree that over $1 a round is far too high (at least for me and some others) to get any good practice with. Birdshot will have to do for me, since I think practice with lighter loads would be a lot better than no practice at all.

hogdogs · January 25, 2010, 05:41 PM

I wouldn't be able to suggest a birdshot as I question the #3 buck in my 20 gauge...

My 00 buck price is for 15 round box from wal-mart...
Winchester Super X.
Brent

Carne Frio · January 25, 2010, 05:44 PM

Go here:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm

then scan down the page to:

" Birdshot as Defense Load "

AlKillya · January 25, 2010, 05:59 PM

Uncle Ben: Yup, that's exactly what I pay as well, but the high price over here in Texas brings it to about 7 bucks.

Hoggs: Yeah, I should probably mention what gauge I'm using. Haha, it's a 12 Ga. Remington 870.

Uncle Ben · January 25, 2010, 06:00 PM

I don't think the OP is really considering birdshot for his defense load, but for practice only, so that the practice is actually affordable.

Great article at boxotruth, by the way. I just got done reading it.

Rampant_Colt · January 25, 2010, 06:06 PM

You may practice using 3 dram equivalent birdshot which are considered heavy trap/skeet loads. For home and defense scenarios use reduced recoil 00 and 000 buckshot. Recoil is approximately the same as the 3 dram trap/skeet loads

...and remember: buckshot for birdies; buckshot for bad guys. Repeat.

oneounceload · January 25, 2010, 06:12 PM

You can practice with pigeon loads - 1-1/4 oz of 7-1/2 at 3-3/4 DE (about 1300 fps) - they'll give you an idea without shelling out for 00 buck

AlKillya · January 25, 2010, 06:18 PM

Carne Frio: Thanks for the post, I just finished reading. Damn good article.

Rampant_Colt: That's a pretty good idea, I didn't think of that; which is exactly what I want. I'm looking for the same kind of feel of what I'll use to protect myself if I ever have too. What exactly is "Dram" I see it on most of the boxes of ammo, but I don't really have much of a clue about what it means.

TxGun · January 25, 2010, 06:52 PM

What exactly is "Dram" I see it on most of the boxes of ammo, but I don't really have much of a clue about what it means.

-----------------------

According to SAAMI:

DRAM EQUIVALENT
The accepted method of correlating relative velocities of shotshells loaded with smokeless propellant to shotshells loaded with black powder. The reference black powder load chosen was a 3 dram charge of black powder, with 1 1/8 oz. of shot and a velocity of 1200 fps. Therefore, a 3 dram equivalent load using smokeless powder would be with 1 1/8 oz. of shot having a velocity of 1200 fps. or 1 1/4 oz. of shot and a velocity of 1165 fps. A 3 1/4 dram equivalent load might have 1 1/8 oz. of shot and a velocity of 1255 fps. Abbreviated Dram Equiv.

http://www.saami.org/Glossary/display.cfm?letter=D

In case you don't know what SAAMI is:

http://www.saami.org/

AlKillya · January 25, 2010, 07:18 PM

Thanks for the quote TX

I've googled it, but it still sounds like gibberish to me.

ishida336 · January 25, 2010, 07:49 PM

Ammunition To Go has some pretty good deals on some reduced-recoil 00 loads.

DasFriek · January 25, 2010, 09:19 PM

Walmart is a great source for Buckshot and some slugs on occasion.
2 3/4 00# and 3" 00# 15 rounds for $10-$12 depending on brand.

Im not so much a believer i need to shoot "only" buckshot when i practice since thats what i keep loaded for HD. I mix it up with birdshot,buckshot and slugs so my shoulder never knows whats coming at it.

Ive ordered from http://www.ammunitiontogo.com before and will do so again.
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalo...gauge-buckshot
I didnt much look at prices on shotgun ammo since Walmart has it so plentiful. My closest ones has 3" 00buck for $12 for 15 which i don't find expensive at all.

AlKillya · January 25, 2010, 11:33 PM

Dasfriek: That's where I buy my ammo, Walmart or Academy. You and Hogdogs both pay $10to $12 for 15?

Me and uncle Buck both pay about $7 for just five shots at our Walmarts.

DasFriek · January 26, 2010, 12:29 AM

They have been having 15 pack box's of the 00Buck in 2 3/4" and 3" both.
Those were Winchester iirc and Remington has a 15 round box for $10

Maybe ask about them trying to order them the next chance you get, I know ive seen them in several locations locally so its not an isolated thing i wouldn't think.

I also have a local gun store thats almost as good as Walmart and can get rifled slugs at $4-$5 a 5 pack

Dicks sporting goods recently had birdshot at $5 a box of 25 recently, I haven't looked in the last 2 weeks tho. Thats a Brick and Mortar store also.

Or just save up for a good order at ammotogo and buy all at once so the shipping isnt so bad, That could end up being cheaper than Walmart if done right.

ADB · January 26, 2010, 02:23 AM

Quote:

Go here:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm

then scan down the page to:

" Birdshot as Defense Load "

I prefer more scientific testing. Low-brass 7 1/2 shot fired from ten feet away will penetrate 6 inches in ballistic gelatin, which is a fatal strike. As I've said before and will say again, anything out of a 12 gauge barrel will be highly lethal at close range.

xm21 · January 26, 2010, 02:23 AM

You and huckle buck pay a lot for buckshot,how much y'all payin' for high grain 9 mm?

Bill DeShivs · January 26, 2010, 02:28 AM

ADB-
Haven't you heard? According to the FBI penetration tests, if it doesn't penetrate at least 19 inches, the bad guy just gets mad!

I mean, a 6 inch deep hole, 3/4 inch in diameter just requires a band aid and a kiss, and the boo boo heals right up!

troy_mclure · January 26, 2010, 04:07 AM

i posted it on here before, but forget the exact stuff.

a guy in my battalion shot a home invader with bird shot, it blinded him, knocked out most of the teeth, and i think removed the jaw.

guy died in the hospital a few days later.

sounds like a plenty good fight stopper right there.

troy_mclure · January 26, 2010, 04:13 AM

Quote:

Go here:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm

then scan down the page to:

" Birdshot as Defense Load "

so he tested buck and slugs, but reiterated second hand(or i heard from my cousins wife's 3rd uncle) info on the bird shot?

Moloch · January 26, 2010, 04:34 AM

There you go:

Birdshot.
REMEMBER, gelatin does NOT have bones!

And here 00 unplated buck:

Looking at both pictures, what would I use? Buckshot, no doubt. Birdshot is for birds! Buckshot is for buck-sized game.

Grandpatime · January 26, 2010, 04:59 AM

I think the new kick ass turkey loads wood stop someone who is running away.
I agree buckshot/slug are expensive even though it the same amount of of lead.
So what u do it take the bird shot out mold it into a slug and pop it back in .Bam 25 rds of slugs for 6$

mikejonestkd · January 26, 2010, 07:19 AM

Take a look at some testing on gel :

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/view...e1190fb1dab722

January 25, 2010, 05:06 PM	#1
AlKillya Junior Member Join Date: January 25, 2010 Location: Hell Paso, Texas Posts: 14	Lethality of Birdshot I'm a believer of you train with what you use. If I plan on shooting Buckshot, I train with Buckshot. If I plan on shooting high grain 9mm, that's what I take to the range, etc. Now, there's no argument that in an emergency if killing power is needed Buckshot is superior. And I will always keep some Buckshot in my gunsafe. However, it is expensive, especially to train with. If I have to use a type of Birdshot to train, I also would like it to be lethal in a home defense situation if it ever came down to it. So looking at a home defense scenario, using Birdshot anywhere from 10-17ft, where penetrating a wall is not an issue, what Birdshot is lethal (if any)? Or what is a cheaper alternative I may not of thought of?

January 25, 2010, 06:00 PM	#8
Uncle Ben Senior Member Join Date: January 31, 2008 Location: Southern California Posts: 400	I don't think the OP is really considering birdshot for his defense load, but for practice only, so that the practice is actually affordable. Great article at boxotruth, by the way. I just got done reading it. Last edited by Uncle Ben; January 25, 2010 at 06:05 PM.

January 25, 2010, 06:06 PM	#9
Rampant_Colt Senior Member Join Date: March 17, 2006 Location: Parts Unknown Posts: 1,478	You may practice using 3 dram equivalent birdshot which are considered heavy trap/skeet loads. For home and defense scenarios use reduced recoil 00 and 000 buckshot. Recoil is approximately the same as the 3 dram trap/skeet loads ...and remember: buckshot for birdies; buckshot for bad guys. Repeat. __________________ member of an elite paramilitary organization: Eagle Scouts

January 25, 2010, 06:52 PM	#12
TxGun Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2008 Location: Family ranch - Central TX. Posts: 467	What exactly is "Dram" I see it on most of the boxes of ammo, but I don't really have much of a clue about what it means. ----------------------- According to SAAMI: DRAM EQUIVALENT The accepted method of correlating relative velocities of shotshells loaded with smokeless propellant to shotshells loaded with black powder. The reference black powder load chosen was a 3 dram charge of black powder, with 1 1/8 oz. of shot and a velocity of 1200 fps. Therefore, a 3 dram equivalent load using smokeless powder would be with 1 1/8 oz. of shot having a velocity of 1200 fps. or 1 1/4 oz. of shot and a velocity of 1165 fps. A 3 1/4 dram equivalent load might have 1 1/8 oz. of shot and a velocity of 1255 fps. Abbreviated Dram Equiv. http://www.saami.org/Glossary/display.cfm?letter=D In case you don't know what SAAMI is: http://www.saami.org/ Last edited by TxGun; January 25, 2010 at 07:00 PM.

January 25, 2010, 09:19 PM	#15
DasFriek Junior member Join Date: May 20, 2009 Posts: 891	Walmart is a great source for Buckshot and some slugs on occasion. 2 3/4 00# and 3" 00# 15 rounds for $10-$12 depending on brand. Im not so much a believer i need to shoot "only" buckshot when i practice since thats what i keep loaded for HD. I mix it up with birdshot,buckshot and slugs so my shoulder never knows whats coming at it. Ive ordered from http://www.ammunitiontogo.com before and will do so again. http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalo...gauge-buckshot I didnt much look at prices on shotgun ammo since Walmart has it so plentiful. My closest ones has 3" 00buck for $12 for 15 which i don't find expensive at all. Last edited by DasFriek; January 25, 2010 at 11:10 PM.

January 25, 2010, 05:13 PM	#2
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	At the short distance you mention, it is quite likely to be lethal... however the possibility of it not stopping the threat post haste is too great for me to worry with. Cheap buck shot is +/- $10 bucks for 15 rounds and suits me fine, goes BANG when I need it to. Brent

January 25, 2010, 05:30 PM	#3
AlKillya Junior Member Join Date: January 25, 2010 Location: Hell Paso, Texas Posts: 14	Hogdogs Which Birdshot would you recommend? Would Lead #4 shot be fine. $10 for 15 rounds?! I have to pay $7 for just 5 rounds of 2 3/4in. buckshot.

January 25, 2010, 05:37 PM	#4
Uncle Ben Senior Member Join Date: January 31, 2008 Location: Southern California Posts: 400	It's about $6 for 5 rounds of 00 buckshot for me locally, yet I can get 25 rounds of birdshot/target loads for the same $6. I agree that over $1 a round is far too high (at least for me and some others) to get any good practice with. Birdshot will have to do for me, since I think practice with lighter loads would be a lot better than no practice at all. __________________ Lazy + Complacent = DISARMED *FIGHT to keep your guns & join the NRA. Contact your representatives about 2A issues at www.capwiz.com/nra/dbq/officials and to be kept up to date on the current issues visit www.nraila.org

January 25, 2010, 05:41 PM	#5
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	I wouldn't be able to suggest a birdshot as I question the #3 buck in my 20 gauge... My 00 buck price is for 15 round box from wal-mart... Winchester Super X. Brent

January 25, 2010, 05:44 PM	#6
Carne Frio Senior Member Join Date: August 28, 2008 Location: Near Fairbanks Alaska Posts: 829	Go here: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm then scan down the page to: " Birdshot as Defense Load "

January 25, 2010, 05:59 PM	#7
AlKillya Junior Member Join Date: January 25, 2010 Location: Hell Paso, Texas Posts: 14	Uncle Ben: Yup, that's exactly what I pay as well, but the high price over here in Texas brings it to about 7 bucks. Hoggs: Yeah, I should probably mention what gauge I'm using. Haha, it's a 12 Ga. Remington 870.

January 25, 2010, 06:12 PM	#10
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	You can practice with pigeon loads - 1-1/4 oz of 7-1/2 at 3-3/4 DE (about 1300 fps) - they'll give you an idea without shelling out for 00 buck

January 25, 2010, 06:18 PM	#11
AlKillya Junior Member Join Date: January 25, 2010 Location: Hell Paso, Texas Posts: 14	Carne Frio: Thanks for the post, I just finished reading. Damn good article. Rampant_Colt: That's a pretty good idea, I didn't think of that; which is exactly what I want. I'm looking for the same kind of feel of what I'll use to protect myself if I ever have too. What exactly is "Dram" I see it on most of the boxes of ammo, but I don't really have much of a clue about what it means.

January 25, 2010, 07:18 PM	#13
AlKillya Junior Member Join Date: January 25, 2010 Location: Hell Paso, Texas Posts: 14	Thanks for the quote TX I've googled it, but it still sounds like gibberish to me.

January 25, 2010, 07:49 PM	#14
ishida336 Member Join Date: December 6, 2009 Posts: 26	Ammunition To Go has some pretty good deals on some reduced-recoil 00 loads.

January 25, 2010, 11:33 PM	#16
AlKillya Junior Member Join Date: January 25, 2010 Location: Hell Paso, Texas Posts: 14	Dasfriek: That's where I buy my ammo, Walmart or Academy. You and Hogdogs both pay $10to $12 for 15? Me and uncle Buck both pay about $7 for just five shots at our Walmarts.

January 26, 2010, 12:29 AM	#17
DasFriek Junior member Join Date: May 20, 2009 Posts: 891	They have been having 15 pack box's of the 00Buck in 2 3/4" and 3" both. Those were Winchester iirc and Remington has a 15 round box for $10 Maybe ask about them trying to order them the next chance you get, I know ive seen them in several locations locally so its not an isolated thing i wouldn't think. I also have a local gun store thats almost as good as Walmart and can get rifled slugs at $4-$5 a 5 pack Dicks sporting goods recently had birdshot at $5 a box of 25 recently, I haven't looked in the last 2 weeks tho. Thats a Brick and Mortar store also. Or just save up for a good order at ammotogo and buy all at once so the shipping isnt so bad, That could end up being cheaper than Walmart if done right.

January 26, 2010, 02:23 AM	#19
xm21 Senior Member Join Date: April 29, 2008 Posts: 177	You and huckle buck pay a lot for buckshot,how much y'all payin' for high grain 9 mm?

January 26, 2010, 02:28 AM	#20
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,981	ADB- Haven't you heard? According to the FBI penetration tests, if it doesn't penetrate at least 19 inches, the bad guy just gets mad! I mean, a 6 inch deep hole, 3/4 inch in diameter just requires a band aid and a kiss, and the boo boo heals right up! __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

January 26, 2010, 04:07 AM	#21
troy_mclure Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2008 Location: gulf of mexico Posts: 2,716	i posted it on here before, but forget the exact stuff. a guy in my battalion shot a home invader with bird shot, it blinded him, knocked out most of the teeth, and i think removed the jaw. guy died in the hospital a few days later. sounds like a plenty good fight stopper right there. __________________ There is only one tactical principle which is not subject to change. It is to use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wound, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."

January 26, 2010, 04:34 AM	#23
Moloch Senior Member Join Date: November 27, 2005 Posts: 1,419	There you go: Birdshot. REMEMBER, gelatin does NOT have bones! And here 00 unplated buck: Looking at both pictures, what would I use? Buckshot, no doubt. Birdshot is for birds! Buckshot is for buck-sized game.

January 26, 2010, 04:59 AM	#24
Grandpatime Junior member Join Date: January 23, 2010 Posts: 121	I think the new kick ass turkey loads wood stop someone who is running away. I agree buckshot/slug are expensive even though it the same amount of of lead. So what u do it take the bird shot out mold it into a slug and pop it back in .Bam 25 rds of slugs for 6$

January 26, 2010, 07:19 AM	#25
mikejonestkd Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2006 Location: Brockport, NY Posts: 3,716	Take a look at some testing on gel : http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/view...e1190fb1dab722 __________________ You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.