Safety & muzzleloaders - are we buying bombs?

[FirstFreedom]

Here's some additional informative reading on the subject:

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/smf...c,84969.0.html

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/smf...c,89844.0.html

[FirstFreedom]

it appears (near as I can tell) that indeed CVAs, BPIs, "Winchesters", Traditions, and Austin & Halleck are all made at the same place in Spain. But the A&H's get special steel or heat treatment or both. I'm playing it safe, and sticking with 70 or 80 gr of 777 until I can afford my T/C Katahdin!

Mr. Wakeman may or may not be on to something - I am still undecided. Some say that he has a financial stake in the competition. He says no, no financial stake, so......

In any event, I will say this. It appears that some people HAVE BEEN injured by CVAs & Traditions, unless those stories are complete fabrications. And, these companies, in negotiating a settlement of the case for the injuries, can always claim "you have no surefire proof that you DIDN'T use 175+ grains of BP equivalent, in excess of recommendations". The plaintiff (injured person) has the burden of proof, so that can lead to settlements that (a) you don't hear about - they are kept confidential, and (b) where the injured persons get far less than what they should, even though they were in fact staying within the manufacturer's recommendations. Unless they have a witness that can say "I saw him - he only dropped in 3 pellets", then the case is weak, and companies like that can weasal out of liability on that basis. And supposedly, the reason for CVAs (the brand name) prior corporate entity going out of business was lawsuit settlements over injury cases like these. I do NOT know whether this is true or not, but I intend to find out - it could be a very interesting tidbit. If they filed bankruptcy, I should be able to find it in the public records - anyone know the exact name of the prior corporate entity that CVA was doing business as?

[sundance44s]

With all the burst barrel talk .. i have to say i can`t tell ya how many times i`ve seen new shooters shoot their muzzle loaders with a short started ball in the end of the barrel .. lucky for them they were shooting light weight round balls with only target loads of powder under 50 grs ....air space is the problem with black powder and the subs .. if the ball / bullet is seated properly on top of the powder burst barrels just don`t happen very often ... probally hard to prove in court though .. makes it hard on companys like CVA makeing guns so cheap and pputting them in the hands of people who other wise couldn`t afford the more expencive Thompson guns . The CVA guns served me well back in the 70`s when i was new to the sport and my dollars were buying baby food and diapers and just couldn`t afford the price on a Thompson .

[arcticap]

It's interesting that on the Hodgdon website, all of the loading data for any kind of pellets whether 777 or Pyrodex is combined and there are no velocity distinctions made between them and they are "equal".
Yet, in loose form 777 is shown to be more potent than Pyrodex (Note .490 round ball velocities for each). That indicates that 777 may not be as potent in pellet form since it may not perform as well when "compacted", and/or Pyrodex may perform slightly better when more compacted, as when in pellet form.
This is the reason for my error about Pyrodex pellets Vs. loose, I was confusing Pyrodex pellets with 777 pellets as to being less potent than in its loose form.

http://www.hodgdon.com/data/muzzleloading/index.php

[FirstFreedom]

Good point, articap, and thanks for the link.

Anyone have more detailed info on this subject? I can't decide if I should be hacked that I bought 2 piece o' junk Traditions, or whether the guns are fine. I do NOT want to worry about shooting 100 grains of 777, and at present, I am. This disgusts me. But then again, Wakeman could be full of it - hard to say. Really need more info, but my searching the net is not turning up any more actualy factual details than has already been posted here and on graybeard.

[RandyWakeman]

You can find Ardesa here:

http://www.ardesa.com/avancarga/eng/tabla_cargas.htm

[marcseatac]

I own 3 BP rifles, a TC Black Diamond in .50 cal, a CVA Optima Pro, and a Traditions Pursuit Pro. The latter two are Spanish made, 209 primers, all are .50 cal. The two Spanish have Magnum stamped on the barrel.

I have shot as a biggest load so far:

100 grains Triple 7 FFFg in the Black Diamond

150 grains 3 Triple 7 pellets in the CVA

150 grains 3 American Pioneer pellets in the Traditions

I was surprised not to notice much difference in recoil or noise shooting 100 grains or 150. I mostly shoot 240 gr bullets in sabots. My go to hunting load in the only legal hunting (I own WA legal no 209 primers allowed) TC Black Diamond w/musket caps is 80 grains of Triple 7 FFFg with a Speer 240 gr .430 wadcutter in a sabot. Very accurate and cheap to shoot! None of the guns are accurate with maximum loads.

[Whisk]

Now I'm getting a little concerned!

I have a CVA 209 Wolf Magnum and have been using 295 gr Powerbelts over 100 grs of loose Triple 7.

Is this safe?

[marcseatac]

I honestly feel that there is a lot of hype involving these modern BP rifles. My impression from shooting 3 examples of these guns is that barrel length is not a great benefit. I think the longer barrels are less accurate. My TC Black Diamond in 22in barrel is by far my most accurate rifle. My CVA 29in is my worst.

I also feel the pre formed pellets are less powerful in terms of grains than loose powder. In my humble estimation the pellets are closer to 40 grains, making 3 pellets equal 120 grains.

I was dissappointed in the performance of these guns until with a lot of patience I settled on a reduced load.

80 grains of Triple 7 FFFg feels like 100 grains of FFg
100 grains of Triple 7 FFFg powder kicks much harder than 150 grains in 3 pellets.

It seems to me the lesser charge burns more completely and faster and might even result in greater velocity.

When I shoot 80 grains of FFFg the rifle actually cracks and everything feels right. I normally can shoot 2 in groups at 50 yards all day long.

The only scary thing I have seen is shooting CVA Buckslayer bullets. These conicals are hollow based and putting 100 grains of loose powder behind them results in a mule kick you will not soon forget. I tried it twice to be sure and will never try it again.

[Whisk]

Maybe I'll just back that 100 grs of Tirple 7 back to 80 since its FFFG

Just shootin' metal tgts now anyway.

No sense wasting powder!

[Whisk]

Marc: How much do those conicals cost? I've been shooting the PowerBelts but they are pretty expensive. Are they easy to load? (sometimes the powerbelts don't push down muzzle too easy unless you clean bbl well between shots..........

[FirstFreedom]

Hey marcs.... be sure to check your CVA manual to see what the max recommended load is - are you sure they SAY that 150 is safe? I wouldn't use 150 in either pellets or loose in a CVA, EVEN IF the manual says it's ok, knowing what I know now from this thread. But the manual may not even CLAIM that 150 is ok, even though it's touted as a "magnum". Yes, it worked for you a few times, but you may be flirting with danger there. If the manual says it's ok, and then it blows up on you, at least you can sue them. But if the manual says 100 or 120 is max, then you're toast. Most likely your manual will say something like this: "150 BP is ok, but NOT 150 Pyrodex, and definitely NOT 150 Triple 7" - most likely it will say download triple 7 by "xx" percentage, or that 100 or 120 is max charge with triple 7.

But I think you are right about loose powder being more powerful than pellets of the same weight.... being packed in tighter, this leads to physics that causes higher pressures.

[Whisk]

I know Hodgon's recommends only up to 100 grs of FFFg Triple Seven whether gun is called magnum or not!

CVA manual recommends up to 100 grs of FFFg Triple Seven but only with Powerbelt bullets.

Still think I'll back off to 80 maybe 90 grs of FFFg. The guy that says 80 works good sounds like it makes sense. Don't know if thats with a Powerbelt bullet though...........

[marcseatac]

The one thing I have done in my testing is to try everything. I got Triple 7 in FFg, FFFg and pellets, Pyrodex pellets, American Pioneer FFFg and Pellets.

I also have shot 4 or 5 different bullets, sabots mostly 240 grain. I've shot the Maxi Balls and the Maxi Hunters and the CVA Buckslayers and recently the Powerbelts (not impressed) and a few others that I can't remember the name.

The heavier bullets (conicals) really up the pressures. I have only shot 150 grain loads 3 or 4 times, just to try it and always with a clean barrel, pelletized and with a 240 grain bullet. Having satisfied my curiousity I am now and in the future limiting my loads to less than 100 grains.

[marcseatac]

I recommend to anyone who is worried to pick up a copy of Lymans Black Powder Handbook & Loading Manual.

It includes basically all the available bullet, sabot, and conicals on the market. It has grid charts in all calibers, barrel lengths and twist rates and test each load in 10 grain increments from 60 gr to 150 gr against all the commercial powders except Triple 7.

The grid chart includes bullet wt., bull coef., sec. dens., and primer cap type.

Information left to right includes charge volume, muzzle velocity, muzzle energy, pressure, velocity 100 yds, energy 100 yds.

I always refer to it before a range trip. Oh, and it has cap and ball pistol data also!

[FirstFreedom]

If Whisk is correct about this:

I know Hodgon's recommends only up to 100 grs of FFFg Triple Seven whether gun is called magnum or not!

CVA manual recommends up to 100 grs of FFFg Triple Seven but only with Powerbelt bullets.

and you tried 150 gr Triple 7 pellets, then you clearly exceeded the recommendations, correct?

You say you try *everything* - have you tried 300 grains then? As long as you're ignoring (or not discovering) the recommendations, why not test that too? Unless I'm missing something, you're flirting with adopting the nickname "Ol' One-Eye Marc", clean barrel or not. I'm glad you're satisfied now at least - hopefully you won't try that again.

[Whisk]

For clarification:

The Hodgon manual was referring to loose Triple 7 not pelets and it just showed the highest recommended load being 100 grs so I assumed that was the max.

I still think I'll back off to 80 grs. It actually did seem more accurate at 50 yds!

[marcseatac]

This from the CVA manual:

*Warning: This is a *Magnum* charge and can only be safely loaded in Magnum capable rifles. Magnum capable rifles include all CVA Break-Actions, Bolt Action in-lines (Firebolt, Magbolt, and HunterBolt) and any year 2001+ Eclipse and Stag Horn rifles. "These magnum capable" guns can be identified by the one piece barrel construction, a serial number ending in 01, 02, 03, and the designation "magnum" on the barrel. Such "magnum" loads do require the use of a musket cap or preferably the #209 shotgun primer ignition in order to fully ignite the charge. Such "magnum" loads should never be fired in conventional In-Lines that do not feature the one-piece Monoblock barrel design.
--------------------------------------------------------------

I always read the manual first. I'm good to go. My Optima Pro is CVA's new top line rifle. The barrel is thick, the gun is 8 1/2 lbs heavy. Thanks for the concern!

[Whisk]

From Hodgon website:

Bullet
Powder Charge (Gr.)
Pellets Used *
Velocity (FPS)
295 Gr. Power Belt 80 One 50 cal. / 50 gr. + One 50 cal. / 30 gr.1431 295 Gr. Power Belt 90 Three 50 cal. / 30 gr.1484 295 Gr. Power Belt 100 Two 50 cal. / 50 gr.1555 348 Gr. Power Belt 80 One 50 cal. / 50 gr. + One 50 cal. / 30 gr.1351 348 Gr. Power Belt 90 Three 50 cal. / 30 gr.1417 348 Gr. Power Belt 100 Two 50 cal. / 50 gr.1469 405 Gr. Power Belt 80 One 50 cal. / 50 gr. + One 50 cal. / 30 gr.1100 405 Gr. Power Belt 100 Two 50 cal. / 50 gr.1386

Like I said, for some reason they stop at 100 grs.

Think I'll stop at 80 for now with loose FFFg and my 295 gr Powerbelts!

[marcseatac]

Here's an example of something I got from the Lyman BP Handbook:

50 Cal 22" barrel 1-24 Twist
Projectile Hornady Sabot 240gr, cci #11, Pyrodex RS
120 gr, MV 1864, ME Ft lbs 1852, pressure 29,900 V@100yd 1532, Energy Ft lbs @100yd 1251

Same thing using 3 Pyrodex 50 gr pellets
150 gr, MV 2049, ME Ft lbs 2238, pressure 27,000 V@100yd 1692, Energy Ft lbs @100yd 1526

Note that the pressure is actually less in the 150 grain pellet charge. It's interesting stuff, if you don't have a chrony, again I recommend the book.

[Whisk]

IT SAYS CCI #11

I WOULDA THOUGHT IT WOULD BE A 209

I have a friend who has shot 3 50/50 Pyrodex pellets behind a 295 gr Powerbelt for a long time with a Magnum CVA

He's never had a problem

I just figure its like the 8 lb "lawyer triggers" they put on even little 22's now!

They are vastly erring on the side of safety for legal reasons

I think the problem comes with pushing the limits (150 grs of ANYTHING) when basic safety measure are not adhered to such as cleaning bore every few shots to ensure the bullet seats all the way down to the powder charge not leaving a dangerous "gap".

I know my 209 CVA Wolf Magnum appears to be built well but without a metalurgical analysis of the bbl how would anyone know? A golf pro years ago told me (after I had bought a set of graphite sticks at WalMart for half what the pro shop sold them for) "do you know where the "seconds" go after the spectrographical analysis of the shafts, etc. ?"

Yep. Wally World.

But I'm not a good enough duffer for it even to probably ever matter. But with a thing that goes BOOM! that logic may not serve one well........

[marcseatac]

A great example of that lawyer effect is written into Piettas manual for the 1858 Remington Revolver. Recommended charge 15 grs, maximum 18 grs. I guess I'll have to stop shooting those 30 grain Pyrodex Pistol pellets out of it! LOL

[Whisk]

Man! I've been a shootin' 25 gr charges in mine since I bought it from Cabela's!

25 grs of loose FFFg Triple Seven no less!

Guess I'm lucky to be alive!

It's one hell of a nice gun BTW. For $179...... hard to beat!

I have quite a few handguns and it is by far my favorite...........

[marcseatac]

If anyone is interested, the very best bullet I have found in terms of accuracy is the Buffalo Bullet in yellow sabot 240 grain hollow point boat tail. Tested in all three of my rifles. It is impossible to beat. They come 32 to a box around $15.00 so they aren't cheap.

I have approximated this bullet using MMP sabots and Speer 240 grain semiwadcutters in lead. The Speers are $10.00 a hundred and the sabots are $5.00 per 50. Damn close results.

[Whisk]

what load do you use with the 240 gr Speer's

grains and type of powder. also just powder and bullet I presume