Big but weak handgun calibers? - Page 2

zach_ · April 15, 2015, 05:23 PM

Y'all might check out the requirements. The rule is odd, but me thinks you got it wrong on the first post.

RodTheWrench · April 15, 2015, 05:50 PM

I'll FFL you my S&W 4506 to use. PM me to set it up.

It's a freaking pussycat.

jmr40 · April 15, 2015, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Then why doesn't everyone just qualify with a .22 LR? That would allow you to carry just about anything.

You have it exactly bass-ackwords.

I don't think so. It appears the OP has it backwards and this is causing confusion.

Quote:

You need to qualify with a gun of equal or smaller caliber then your carry gun

Doyle · April 15, 2015, 08:06 PM

Yea, I think he meant to say "qualify with the same or larger caliber" than you intend to carry.

mapsjanhere · April 16, 2015, 10:09 AM

Yes I did mix it up, it was to say you can carry an equal or lesser caliber than you qualified with.
NM rules require you qualify separately for revolver and semi-auto. So currently we use a 45 LC and a 45 ACP.

Limnophile · April 16, 2015, 11:52 PM

^So your carry permit specifies whether you are allowed to carry a revolver, semiauto, or both, and then what your caliber cap is imposed on each relevant type? Sounds like a government with far too much time on its hands.

How is the caliber cap specified? For example, do they differentiate between a .45 Colt and a .454 Casull?

heyjoe · April 17, 2015, 12:08 AM

you also cannot carry more than one handgun at a time in new mexico.

**44 AMP** · April 17, 2015, 12:56 AM

Maybe.

But this kind of thinking is seen other places as well. The base intent is that people who are licensed by the state to do certain things are actually capable of doing those things, not just saying they are.

And also the idea that if you demonstrate your competence with the more difficult thing, it is assumed you would be equally competent with something of lesser difficulty.

My state has a motorcycle endorsement to your driver's license. It has classes (sizes) of motorcycles. What you pass the test on is what you get endorsed (licensed) for. That, and everything under it. Not for anything bigger.

Pass the test on a Honda 90, you are not endorsed for a Harley 1000. Pass it on the 1000 and you are endorsed for the little 90 (for example).

While I find the handgun rule you describe a bit excessive, I am experienced with handguns. There are a lot of people who really are not. I understand the state's interest in having them demonstrate a standard level of competence, before issuing a license.

Whether or not the required level of competence is appropriate is a different matter, and a question for a different thread.

Point is, if you can't physical meet the qual standards with what you plan to carry, maybe you shouldn't be carrying that....

Not because I think you are incompetent, or a danger, to others, but because doing a sneak around could backfire on you.

Using light loads in a large caliber so you can meet the letter of the law, when you could not pass the qual with the standard defense ammo, might be seen as meeting the letter of the law while violating the intent of it.

If you did that, and then later were in a defense shooting, with full power ammo in your gun, (which you had not qual'ed with) isn't going to help your case in court. Rather the opposite, I would think. Goes to you credibility, big time, if the info comes out.

I don't care if you are 25, 45, 75 or 95, if you cannot meet the state required qualifications, you should not carry that in that state, no matter what it is.

9ballbilly · April 17, 2015, 06:18 AM

^^^^^^ +1 ^^^^^^

Always cover your backside!

B.L.E. · April 17, 2015, 06:36 AM

Quote:

My state has a motorcycle endorsement to your driver's license. It has classes (sizes) of motorcycles. What you pass the test on is what you get endorsed (licensed) for. That, and everything under it. Not for anything bigger.

Pass the test on a Honda 90, you are not endorsed for a Harley 1000. Pass it on the 1000 and you are endorsed for the little 90 (for example).

As if a Harley Sportster = a Suzuki GXSR1000

That's like comparing a .45ACP to a .454Casull.
Makes me glad I live in TX where a MC endorsement lets you ride anything.
However, if you qualify with a revolver here, you can only carry revolvers and you have to qualify with factory ammo so check the rules carefully before you decide to qualify with a .45 revolver shooting cowboy action gamer loads.

Doyle · April 17, 2015, 07:43 AM

Quote:

However, if you qualify with a revolver here, you can only carry revolvers and you have to qualify with factory ammo so check the rules carefully before you decide to qualify with a .45 revolver shooting cowboy action gamer loads.

Do they always have to be "full power loads"? You can buy factory .45 cowboy loads.

1-DAB · April 17, 2015, 09:11 AM

the law is kind of squirrely, it only addresses caliber, not power. so a 38 caliber revolver is treated the same if you shoot 38 special or 357 mag. guess it's one sop toward the applicants. likewise 44 special/44mag.

so if you want to shoot bunny fart loads, knock yourself out. i'm guessing most law makers that passed this many years ago didn't understand the finer points of calibers and power, but they understood bullet diameter.

at least you don't have to declare which exact gun you will be carrying. semi-auto SA (1911), DA/SA (92F), striker fired (Glock), all treated the same, even though their operation is different from gun to gun.

TimSr · April 17, 2015, 01:24 PM

Quote:

If there was an arbitrary rule that you couldn't drive a car with a bigger engine than what you took your test in, would you go with your daily driver 2 l Honda or try to find a 425 Cadillac so you can drive any car you might come across later?

That is assuming you could pass the test in a larger, more powerful vehicle.

What you are asking for is more like, "I am not capable of passing my drivers test in my Cadillac so I'd like to take the test in my Honda so I can legally drive my Cadillac on the road. Where can I get Cadillac labels to put on my Honda?"

The law is dumb because most people who go to the trouble to get a CCW, will have the God given sense to carry something which which they are proficient. What your friend is trying to do, getting a lawful endorcement to carry something with which he is not proficient, is really justifing the existance of the dumb law.

I do understand the limitations of age, and I'm sure for your friend, its more about being told he is no longer qualified to do something he once did. Its traumatic when a person who has driven for 60 years loses his driver's license. I can no longer pass the driver's license eye exam with my glasses on, and my driver's license now says I'm required by law to wear them when I drive. Some people are restriced to daytime driving only. It may be indignant, but there is more dignity in passing with what he is qualified, than failing because he tried to pass with something with which he was not, that he wasn't going to carry anyways.

spacecoast · April 17, 2015, 01:32 PM

A nice Colt or Remington .41 RF Deringer is what you need.

1-DAB · April 17, 2015, 01:46 PM

different instructors apply the shooting test differently. some just want you to shoot from low ready. others want you to draw, reload, and show a fair amount of proficiency with your gun before they will pass you.

at my last requal, i was asked to watch a guy who was shooting, to make sure he stayed safe (i had already shot, and shown my proficiency with handling and shooting).....ummm.....he needed A LOT of practice. he passed, but barely. but i would not classify him as proficient.

15 shots at 3 yards, 10 shots at 7 yards. 12" x 18" target. the entire target is the scoring zone.

instructor had to ask some of us better shots to spread them around so he could count holes. no problem. i think next time i'll draw a happy face with my holes.

old bear · April 17, 2015, 03:36 PM

Quote:

You need to qualify with a gun of equal or smaller caliber then your carry gun

If this is correct, why not qualify with a .22? Good Luck....

Doyle · April 17, 2015, 04:03 PM

Quote:

If this is correct, why not qualify with a .22? Good Luck....

You didn't read the whole thread. He mixed up the original statement. Should have been "qualify with equal or larger".

mavracer · April 17, 2015, 05:32 PM

Stupid law or not, trying to do an end around, to legally carry a gun that you can't do what is probably a very easy qualification with, isn't ethical IMHO.
My 85 yo dad isn't happy about his limitations either but the Jeff Cooper fan is packing a 9mm and has a poodle shooter in the closet now days.

old bear · April 18, 2015, 07:25 PM

Quote:

You didn't read the whole thread. He mixed up the original statement. Should have been "qualify with equal or larger".

No I did not read he entire thread, but I thought there may have been some sort of mix up with the O/P's comment.

BigJimP · April 20, 2015, 12:28 PM

Talk to an experienced reloader....and find a load that will work for your buddy....( as I get closer to 70, recoil takes its toll on my hands, wrists, etc too )...

But in .45 acp...there are a lot of options...start with the springs, as an example, Wilson Combat in a 5" gun recommends recoil springs between 15 and 18.5 lbs...( I'd start with something in the middle like 16 lbs or maybe 17 lbs ) so its easier for him to manipulate the weapon / because that is part of it as we get older - hand strength, arthritis, etc...../ and I know you indicated a USP... ( but 1911's is where my perspective is / but you can interpret along the same lines for the USP)...

and then I'd look at the cartridge....Hodgdon reloading site lists..:

230 gr FMJ bullet
Hodgdon Clays..( a fast powder, that gives really light recoil )
Minimum 3.7gr 670 fps at 15,900 CUP / Max is 4.0gr 732 fps 17,000 CUP
Hodgdon TiteGroup ( a powder a lot of us use )
Minimum is 4.4 gr 744 fps at 15,000 cup/max is 4.8 818 fps 16,700 CUP

and depending on what gun he is shooting ...the recoil formula says there are 3 primary factors in the recoil ( bullet weight, muzzle velocity and weight of the gun ).....and if you can add as little as 4 oz more than whatever gun he is shooting now it will reduce the recoil about 10% ( so an all steel 5" 1911 vs a 4" or an alloy frame ...may be a better option) / or maybe a longer barrel than whatever he is shooting now...( but the point is, go a little heavier on the gun, if he can )....

Whatever he decides, I hope it works out !

Cosmodragoon · April 20, 2015, 12:42 PM

Maybe I missed it but does it have to be a semi-automatic? I'd think .45 Colt would be the easiest route, especially in a revolver for one of its magnum cousins. (For instance, ever shoot .45 Colt out of an XVR?)

buck460XVR · April 20, 2015, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Stupid law or not, trying to do an end around, to legally carry a gun that you can't do what is probably a very easy qualification with, isn't ethical IMHO.

^^^Kinda my opinion also. If one cannot properly operate a firearm when they are prepared and relaxed, how are they gonna operate it safely and effectively under pressure.

Getting old sucks....I know. But getting old means you have lived long enough to learn some things. Knowing when something is beyond your limitations is one of them.

Cheapshooter · April 20, 2015, 02:47 PM

If you "qualify" with a weak 45 why do you think you should carry a full power 45? Qualify with what you can, and carry what you qualify with. Be it a 45, 40, 9Mm, 380, 32,25, or 22.
Kinda like saying I'm gonna get my pilot's license on an XBox game, then go fly a 737!

1-DAB · April 20, 2015, 02:56 PM

the state has 2 qualification categories available: revolver or semi-auto. you can do either or both.

FlySubCompact · April 20, 2015, 11:53 PM

Some soft shooting 45acp's?

I seem to recall a Hickok45 video where he crammed some ffffg Goex in some shells and ran them in a 1911. He reported that they were so soft the action barely worked.

Might not work for follow ups until the cloud clears.

April 15, 2015, 05:23 PM	#26
zach_ Senior Member Join Date: February 21, 2014 Location: DFW north Posts: 377	Google the requirements Y'all might check out the requirements. The rule is odd, but me thinks you got it wrong on the first post. __________________ Z

April 15, 2015, 05:50 PM	#27
RodTheWrench Senior Member Join Date: April 24, 2013 Location: Utah Posts: 365	I'll FFL you my S&W 4506 to use. PM me to set it up. It's a freaking pussycat. __________________ "Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid." - Han Solo

April 16, 2015, 10:09 AM	#30
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	Yes I did mix it up, it was to say you can carry an equal or lesser caliber than you qualified with. NM rules require you qualify separately for revolver and semi-auto. So currently we use a 45 LC and a 45 ACP. __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

April 17, 2015, 12:56 AM	#33
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,820	Stupid rule? Maybe. But this kind of thinking is seen other places as well. The base intent is that people who are licensed by the state to do certain things are actually capable of doing those things, not just saying they are. And also the idea that if you demonstrate your competence with the more difficult thing, it is assumed you would be equally competent with something of lesser difficulty. My state has a motorcycle endorsement to your driver's license. It has classes (sizes) of motorcycles. What you pass the test on is what you get endorsed (licensed) for. That, and everything under it. Not for anything bigger. Pass the test on a Honda 90, you are not endorsed for a Harley 1000. Pass it on the 1000 and you are endorsed for the little 90 (for example). While I find the handgun rule you describe a bit excessive, I am experienced with handguns. There are a lot of people who really are not. I understand the state's interest in having them demonstrate a standard level of competence, before issuing a license. Whether or not the required level of competence is appropriate is a different matter, and a question for a different thread. Point is, if you can't physical meet the qual standards with what you plan to carry, maybe you shouldn't be carrying that.... Not because I think you are incompetent, or a danger, to others, but because doing a sneak around could backfire on you. Using light loads in a large caliber so you can meet the letter of the law, when you could not pass the qual with the standard defense ammo, might be seen as meeting the letter of the law while violating the intent of it. If you did that, and then later were in a defense shooting, with full power ammo in your gun, (which you had not qual'ed with) isn't going to help your case in court. Rather the opposite, I would think. Goes to you credibility, big time, if the info comes out. I don't care if you are 25, 45, 75 or 95, if you cannot meet the state required qualifications, you should not carry that in that state, no matter what it is. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

April 17, 2015, 06:18 AM	#34
9ballbilly Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2008 Location: northeast Florida Posts: 611	^^^^^^ +1 ^^^^^^ Always cover your backside! __________________ may God eternally bless the American Rifleman--- as long as one stands, resolute, liberty shall not perish.

April 15, 2015, 08:06 PM	#29
Doyle Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2007 Location: Rainbow City, Alabama Posts: 7,167	Yea, I think he meant to say "qualify with the same or larger caliber" than you intend to carry.

April 16, 2015, 11:52 PM	#31
Limnophile Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2015 Location: Issaquah, Washington Posts: 1,032	^So your carry permit specifies whether you are allowed to carry a revolver, semiauto, or both, and then what your caliber cap is imposed on each relevant type? Sounds like a government with far too much time on its hands. How is the caliber cap specified? For example, do they differentiate between a .45 Colt and a .454 Casull?

April 17, 2015, 12:08 AM	#32
heyjoe Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2007 Posts: 438	you also cannot carry more than one handgun at a time in new mexico.

April 17, 2015, 09:11 AM	#37
1-DAB Senior Member Join Date: May 5, 2010 Location: Santa Fe, NM Posts: 474	the law is kind of squirrely, it only addresses caliber, not power. so a 38 caliber revolver is treated the same if you shoot 38 special or 357 mag. guess it's one sop toward the applicants. likewise 44 special/44mag. so if you want to shoot bunny fart loads, knock yourself out. i'm guessing most law makers that passed this many years ago didn't understand the finer points of calibers and power, but they understood bullet diameter. at least you don't have to declare which exact gun you will be carrying. semi-auto SA (1911), DA/SA (92F), striker fired (Glock), all treated the same, even though their operation is different from gun to gun.

April 17, 2015, 01:32 PM	#39
spacecoast Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2009 Location: Sunshine and Keystone States Posts: 4,461	A nice Colt or Remington .41 RF Deringer is what you need.

April 17, 2015, 01:46 PM	#40
1-DAB Senior Member Join Date: May 5, 2010 Location: Santa Fe, NM Posts: 474	different instructors apply the shooting test differently. some just want you to shoot from low ready. others want you to draw, reload, and show a fair amount of proficiency with your gun before they will pass you. at my last requal, i was asked to watch a guy who was shooting, to make sure he stayed safe (i had already shot, and shown my proficiency with handling and shooting).....ummm.....he needed A LOT of practice. he passed, but barely. but i would not classify him as proficient. 15 shots at 3 yards, 10 shots at 7 yards. 12" x 18" target. the entire target is the scoring zone. instructor had to ask some of us better shots to spread them around so he could count holes. no problem. i think next time i'll draw a happy face with my holes.

April 20, 2015, 12:28 PM	#45
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	Talk to an experienced reloader....and find a load that will work for your buddy....( as I get closer to 70, recoil takes its toll on my hands, wrists, etc too )... But in .45 acp...there are a lot of options...start with the springs, as an example, Wilson Combat in a 5" gun recommends recoil springs between 15 and 18.5 lbs...( I'd start with something in the middle like 16 lbs or maybe 17 lbs ) so its easier for him to manipulate the weapon / because that is part of it as we get older - hand strength, arthritis, etc...../ and I know you indicated a USP... ( but 1911's is where my perspective is / but you can interpret along the same lines for the USP)... and then I'd look at the cartridge....Hodgdon reloading site lists..: 230 gr FMJ bullet Hodgdon Clays..( a fast powder, that gives really light recoil ) Minimum 3.7gr 670 fps at 15,900 CUP / Max is 4.0gr 732 fps 17,000 CUP Hodgdon TiteGroup ( a powder a lot of us use ) Minimum is 4.4 gr 744 fps at 15,000 cup/max is 4.8 818 fps 16,700 CUP and depending on what gun he is shooting ...the recoil formula says there are 3 primary factors in the recoil ( bullet weight, muzzle velocity and weight of the gun ).....and if you can add as little as 4 oz more than whatever gun he is shooting now it will reduce the recoil about 10% ( so an all steel 5" 1911 vs a 4" or an alloy frame ...may be a better option) / or maybe a longer barrel than whatever he is shooting now...( but the point is, go a little heavier on the gun, if he can ).... Whatever he decides, I hope it works out !

April 20, 2015, 12:42 PM	#46
Cosmodragoon Senior Member Join Date: March 18, 2013 Location: Northeastern US Posts: 1,869	Maybe I missed it but does it have to be a semi-automatic? I'd think .45 Colt would be the easiest route, especially in a revolver for one of its magnum cousins. (For instance, ever shoot .45 Colt out of an XVR?)

April 20, 2015, 02:47 PM	#48
Cheapshooter Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2007 Location: Missouri Posts: 8,306	If you "qualify" with a weak 45 why do you think you should carry a full power 45? Qualify with what you can, and carry what you qualify with. Be it a 45, 40, 9Mm, 380, 32,25, or 22. Kinda like saying I'm gonna get my pilot's license on an XBox game, then go fly a 737! __________________ Cheapshooter's rules of gun ownership #1: NEVER SELL OR TRADE ANYTHING!

April 20, 2015, 02:56 PM	#49
1-DAB Senior Member Join Date: May 5, 2010 Location: Santa Fe, NM Posts: 474	the state has 2 qualification categories available: revolver or semi-auto. you can do either or both.

April 20, 2015, 11:53 PM	#50
FlySubCompact Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2012 Posts: 306	Some soft shooting 45acp's? I seem to recall a Hickok45 video where he crammed some ffffg Goex in some shells and ran them in a 1911. He reported that they were so soft the action barely worked. Might not work for follow ups until the cloud clears.