1680 powder in a 25-20 HELP!!!!

[oldcars]

I just bought a Marlin 1894CL in 25-20 and the guy I bought it from said he had been using 12.5 grains of Accurate 1680 powder behind a 86 grain jacketed bullet. Is this a safe load? I have looked all over the internet and can't figure it out.........

[jag2]

I don't see it either, I use accurate #9 with the 86 grn. The 1680 shows up for the 65 and 75, the 12.5 is on the high end but probably safe. I shoot the 25-20 in a Remington pump and feel a little kick but in a Win 92 it is really smooth. I would guess your Marlin is plenty strong for the high end but check your necks for splitting, they are very thin.

[Goatwhiskers]

A phone call to Western Powders will solve your problem. They make A1680. Goat

[SL1]

Just using default values, that load looks like a SUBSTANTIAL overload in QuickLOAD calculations, but I have no experience with that cartridge to tune QuickLOAD.

I am stuck in a location away from my reloading library for a few more days, so I can't look-up old data from here. I will check when I can and update this post.

In the meantime, I suggest that you call Accurate Powers at 406-234-0422
and ask them.

Also, it would be helpful to know WHICH 86 grain bullet you are talking about loading.

SL1

[SHR970]

In 25 cal rifle bullets, your 86 gr. JFP is available from Remington which is made for the 25-20; I'm guessing this is what he used. Your other choices are 60 gr. F.P. Hornady or 75 gr. Speer.

According to my Speer manual the load of AA1680 you desribed would be top end for the 25-20 using a 75 gr. Speer but the Speer data is held to 28k CUP. Your Marlin will handle a fair bit more. Going from the 75 gr. FP to an 86 gr. FP will jack up your pressures. But we are also talking about the same basic Marlin that handles 357's. But as jag2 said, the case necks will be your weak link.

Personally, I would use the Speer starting data, and work up from there; if you are nervous about that, give the good folks at AA/ Western Powders a call or email and see what they suggest. They have always been very helpful to me.

[SL1]

OK, I got back home for a few minutes and this is what I found in my old manuals:

Max loads for 85-87 grain jacketed bullets seem to stop at about 11.0 grains for AA-1680 and the old Winchester 680 (supposedly just different lots of the exact same thing).

As SHR970 notes, those loads are limited to the old SAAMI standard of 28,000 CUP. The old .218 Bee (which is still newer than the .25-20) was built on the .25-20 case, but has a SAAMI maximum pressure of 40,000 CUP. So, I would expect that your MODERN .25-20 cases would be able to handle that level of pressure. (However, do NOT try to load the old balloon-head cases to anything like that if you ever stumble across some.)

There is some uncertainty in trying to equate these old CUP numbers to the PSI numbers that I can calculate with the QuickLOAD program. Usually, PSI numbers are somewhat higher than CUP numbers for the same actual pressure. The author of the QuickLOAD program has set the maximum pressure limit for the .218 Bee at 46,412 psi and the .25-20 at 39,160 psi. Just how equivalent those psi numbers are to the old CUP limits, I cannot tell you. It seems as though the SAAMI CUP and QuickLOAD PSI numbers for the .218 Bee might be the same actual pressure, while the QuickLOAD PSI number for the .25-20 must be a substantial increase above the old SAAMI CUP limit for that cartridge. Still , QuickLOAD is obviously using a slightly lower pressure limit for the .25-20 than for the .218 Bee.

When I used the default values in QuickLOAD for the .25-20 cartridge and put 12.5 grains of AA-1680 under each of the 3 Speer 87 grain bullets in the QuickLOAD database, I get compressed charges and pressures ranging from 49,941 psi to 73,783 psi. I think you probably should stay away from any of those pressures in the .25-20 and compressed charges of ball powders in general.

However, the QuickLOAD default values for case volumes are usually set to lower than average values that will tend to over-predict pressure. If I set the charge to 100% of the case volume that is available under each of those 3 bullets, I get pressures of 34,674 psi to 38,929 psi. Those should be OK in your gun if it is in good shape, so you maybe you could load to whatever charge weight fills YOUR cases to the base of the 86 grain bullets and be OK.

But, QuickLOAD is NOT as good as pressure-test data, so please don't take this as carte-blanch to load AA-1680 to 100% density under 86 grain bullets. And you should also consider that the previous owner who told you what his max load was MIGHT not have been remembering correctly what powder, charge weight or bullet he was using. And, unless he gave you his left-over powder, you will be using a different lot of AA-1680 than he was. Also, given the wide range of pressures from the QuickLOAD calculations, it is obvious that the choice of bullet is an important consideration (due mainly to much different lengths), as is the over-all cartridge length to which it is seated. So,you still need to work-up those loads in YOUR gun with YOUR cases. But, if you do get to 12.5 grains without any issues, then it is probably an safe load so long as your gun is in good condition.

SL1

[zeke]

Marlin 1894 cl 25-20, Win brass, Fed 205 primer, 1680 powder, Speer 75 grain jfp

12.0 grains = 1805 fps ex accuracy
12.5 grains = 1930 fps
13.0 grains = 1960 fps decent accuracy



Same but IMR-4198

12.0 grains = 1850 fps ex accuracy (most accurate load tried, but had to individually weigh charges)

All loads tried with Rem 85 jsp did not produce decent accuracy.

[oldcars]

Thanks for all the info, I just bought the gun from a local guy who has been reloading a long time and it came with 40 rounds of this load, as well as 10 fired cases from the same batch that look fine. My Normal rule is not to shoot anyone elses hand loads, but these bullets are tiny and won't come out with the bullet puller, so my only option is to pull the with pliers and toss the bullets, or shoot them. I am going to weigh each loaded round to check for deviation in weight. He has been shooting this load in this gun for awhile after working up to it, I just hate breaking my own rules! They are loaded in new Remington brass.

[Unclenick]

You might want to get the use of a borescope and check how the throat is doing, too.