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Old April 10, 2009, 11:30 PM   #51
David Armstrong
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By my definition, many of the threat focused techniques (such as using the silhouette of the gun in your peripheral vision) are aiming techniques as opposed to sighted techniques.
Right. Just because you are point shooting it doesn't mean you are not aiming the gun, it just means you are aiming it using some method other than using the sights.
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Old April 11, 2009, 11:28 AM   #52
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There's a galaxy of difference it would seem between "reflexive fire" with a carbine and point shooting with a pistol though, both from a training and tactical standpoint.
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Old April 11, 2009, 12:13 PM   #53
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There's a galaxy of difference it would seem between "reflexive fire" with a carbine and point shooting with a pistol though, both from a training and tactical standpoint.
We'll disagree. Looking at the FM and such it appears the concept and principles are just the same, only the weapon differs.
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Old April 11, 2009, 03:27 PM   #54
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I'm not talking about "concept and principles", I'm talking about the actual mechanics of using a rifle vs. a pistol, which are radically different.
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Old April 11, 2009, 03:31 PM   #55
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Sights

If I adjust the rear sight on my P22 to the left, which way will it make my bullet go
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Old April 11, 2009, 05:45 PM   #56
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Left.
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Old April 11, 2009, 11:52 PM   #57
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I'm not talking about "concept and principles", I'm talking about the actual mechanics of using a rifle vs. a pistol, which are radically different.
that is a little different animal than the previous post, which was "There's a galaxy of difference it would seem between "reflexive fire" with a carbine and point shooting with a pistol though, both from a training and tactical standpoint. " The training and the tactics are much the same. And as the concepts and priciples are used for firing both carbines and pistols, I'm not sure what the mechanical differences between the weapons would matter to the discussion.
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Old April 12, 2009, 07:19 AM   #58
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About 14 months ago I trained an 18 year current Army instructor in both rifle and handgun point shooting. ( It was at SouthNarc's range in Miss.)
His job was then to teach the current Army's close range rifle program to the infantry.
I commented that what he was teaching with the rifle was very similar to the WW2 long gun point shooting that my dad (who was a WW2 Ranger) taught me.
So I guess you can say that the Army is teaching point shooting, at least as an advanced skill.
He was very impressed with how easy, simple and accurate handgun point shooting was, especially that it only took a couple of boxes of ammo to get it down pat.
You guys can debate here all you want, but until you receive some hands on training, your debates resembles virgins talking about sex.
Once again, here is my home study course for those who want to explore this skill.
http://kilogulf59.proboards.com/inde...lay&thread=114

PPS..here is his review of our range time together:
http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?t=34500

I spent this last weekend with Matt Temkin, his friend Paul and Southnarc. Southnarc was a great host to all of us! Those of you who are still wondering about the Fairbairn-Sykes/Applegate PS concept, let me tell you: it is valid and it should be a part of any gunmans reportoire.

We worked on PS with rifle and pistol; going through the whole of what Matt has been talking about for a while now. For the close fight, which as we all know, is close, quick and violent, these are some of the best techniques I have seen for dealing with a situation of this type. My goal now is to work out for myself where they fit in my bag of tricks along with what I have in there already.

Matt also beat me up for a while using the WWII combatives out of "Get Tough" and "Kill Or Get Killed." Yeah, it hurt. But, I'll be showing it to my LTs when I get back to work in a few weeks. It is extremely effective, and isn't the watered down, PC crap that passes for fighting skills these days.

I want to thank these guys for letting me hang out with them, and pick their brains for a while. Train with Matt if you get the chance. Just bring lots of ammo, Matt likes to shoot...a lot!
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Old April 12, 2009, 07:28 AM   #59
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Best 7yd shooter I ever saw....

was an Orkin man. He had been on the job 20+ years. I'm not sure how it applies and is probably off topic it's just that reading this thread made me remember. At 7yds he could drill the center with consistency. He said he really didn't 'aim'.
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Old April 12, 2009, 08:35 AM   #60
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I'm not sure what the mechanical differences between the weapons would matter to the discussion
It's a lot easier to point shoot with a carbine at close range than it is with a pistol. At least, it is if you know what you're doing with a carbine. You seem to think I am disagreeing with you or something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Tempkin
You guys can debate here all you want, but until you receive some hands on training, your debates resembles virgins talking about sex.
OH LAWL. I would not rush to judge other people's training so quickly, my good man.
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Old April 12, 2009, 08:51 AM   #61
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You guys can debate here all you want, but until you receive some hands on training, your debates resembles virgins talking about sex.
Well, that settles it. What was I thinking? I guess the next time I consider receiving instruction from Massad Ayoob on methods of combat situations, I'll just blow him off and go straight to the "BTDT Almighty Ones"...:barf:
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Old April 12, 2009, 09:03 AM   #62
matthew temkin
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Not quite,Tutlle8
A better analogy would be if I was blowing off Ayoob's instruction without either training with the man, researching his written/video works or at least training with someone who trained with him.
In that case then my opinions on him/his system
would not be worth the ink they were printed on.
Or, in other words, like a virgin...
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Old April 12, 2009, 09:21 AM   #63
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Which is precisely why I recommend to friends and shooters that if they're interested in learning about Combat Focused shooting, to check out Rob Pincus and ICE Training. Rob's one of the "top flight" trainers out there, and is featured on Outdoor Channel's The Best Defense on Wednesday nights. I'd reckon that if you're interested in learning about threat focused shooting, that you should skip all the internet experts and go train with the best.
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Old April 12, 2009, 10:15 AM   #64
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Rob's one of the "top flight" trainers out there, and is featured on Outdoor Channel's The Best Defense on Wednesday nights. I'd reckon that if you're interested in learning about threat focused shooting, that you should skip all the internet experts and go train with the best.
And it looks like Rob will be in VA Beach next month... guess i'll have to check it out.

Thanks for the insight guys...
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Old April 12, 2009, 11:01 AM   #65
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That really made me a bit depressed, Ahab. We've had to travel every time we wanted to go to a training course. This year we're taking a break from course training to bolster our savings and frankly making sure we're prepared if we become affected by the economy. Then I check out your link to Rob's site and they have a course in Cedar Rapids. That's only just over an hour away. Guess we're going to have to keep a close eye on their course schedule for next year and only hope they come back around.
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Old April 12, 2009, 03:08 PM   #66
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If one is seeking hands on instruction in threat/target focused shooting then Rob Pincus is a good man to go to.
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Old April 12, 2009, 05:25 PM   #67
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Tuttle: that's one of the neat things about Rob's classes is that they move them around the country. It makes it easier for shooters to get access to instruction. In the world of "threat focused" shooting instructors, it pretty much goes Rob Pincus/ICE at the top and then everyone else falls beneath them (some more distantly than others).
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Old April 12, 2009, 08:09 PM   #68
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My first time in the 360 degree simulator at Front Sight (I think you know what technique they teach there!) I shot the course and afterwards the instructor (who was clipped to the back of my belt) asked if I had looked at the front sight at all during the firing drill. I couldn't remember and he said "You did once, the rest of the time you were point shooting". We scored my targets and I was appalled at some of my shots, marginal hits on targets I could have reached out and touched! Then we came to the hostage target, a bad guy holding a knife to a little boys throat. I had two bullet holes touching between the eyes. The instructor said "This was the only time you looked at your sights". He said because of the difficulty of the shot, with the hostage covering most of the target, I reverted to my good technique because subconsciously I knew I needed to make a difficult shot, the rest of the time I was just reacting to targets popping up, not aiming.

I can see a difference in my groups when I focus on the front sight, when focusing on the target I still can shoot pretty well, but there is no doubt I can be more precise if I focus on the front sight.

Quote:
Question: if you're focused on the front sight, how do you tell if a guy just pulled out a cellphone versus a 380?
If you are drawn and pointed at a guy and you don't know what he has in his hand, I have to assume you are robbing him, not the other way around. I can't think of why you would be pointing a gun at somebody you didn't know was a threat.

When I train, and I am drawn on a target, the gun is up in my plane of vision or at the low ready but I am looking at the target, giving commands to stop or what have you. I would have a clear view of what the target was doing. When I decide it is now time to shoot the threat, my eyes change focus from the target and now the front sight is my focus, the sights are already lined up, and I take up the slack on the trigger while fine tuning my aim and the gun goes bang, all in a split second. That is what works best for me.
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Old April 12, 2009, 09:13 PM   #69
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There is also this guy:
http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?t=46506
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Old April 12, 2009, 09:24 PM   #70
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If you are drawn and pointed at a guy and you don't know what he has in his hand, I have to assume you are robbing him, not the other way around. I can't think of why you would be pointing a gun at somebody you didn't know was a threat.
Come on man, dont assume... Guy I know drew down on a kid who jumped out at him from behind a car as he was closing his shop late one night... Kid was just "messing around" but thats a good situation to know what his hands and not your front sight are doing...

Interesting about your 360 degree training results, but I find it hard to beleive you can say with certainty that your hostage kill was front sight. Possible yes, maybe even likely, but accuracy will always increase in that situation because you instinctively take your time (kind of like what the instructor mentioned).
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Old April 12, 2009, 11:56 PM   #71
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If you are drawn and pointed at a guy and you don't know what he has in his hand, I have to assume you are robbing him, not the other way around. I can't think of why you would be pointing a gun at somebody you didn't know was a threat.
Given the previous responses around here, you should draw down on somebody even if they have no weapon visible if they are breaking into a car, inside your house, arguing with you, walking toward you in a parking lot, and a whole host of events!
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Old April 12, 2009, 11:57 PM   #72
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Don't forget to always carry while you're on the john, Dave. That way if the pizza guy turns out to be a "tango", you can nail him while using your tactical toilet for cover.
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Old April 13, 2009, 08:51 AM   #73
David Armstrong
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Don't forget to always carry while you're on the john, Dave. That way if the pizza guy turns out to be a "tango", you can nail him while using your tactical toilet for cover.
Oh lordy, I forgot. All those warrior schools--
Get Off the Toilet!
Tactical Toilet Training!
Fighting Toilet Skills!
Defensive Toilet Training!
Introduction to Defensive Toilet!
Close Range Toilet Fighting!
Toilet Terrorist Interdiction!
Toilet Armorer!
Toilet Rifle!
Advanced Toilet Rifle!
Extreme Toilet Rifle!
Target Identification from the Toilet: Is it really the pizza dude or is it a terrorist?
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Old April 13, 2009, 08:59 AM   #74
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Hahaha, thanks for the laughs Dave.

But would you say there are some circumstances where drawing on someone and watching them, not your front sight, is prudent?
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Old April 13, 2009, 11:12 AM   #75
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But would you say there are some circumstances where drawing on someone and watching them, not your front sight, is prudent?
I would say that watching the BG instead of your front sight is usually the more prudent course of action. The front sight is not going to hurt me, the BG is, so that is where I want my attention and my focus unless there is some compelling reason to change that. Needing a precisions shot, for instance, would suggest a shift to a good sight picture, whereas some of the examples I gave earlier (someone messing with your car, unknown person in house, etc. or the example you gave where someone jsut sort of jumps out at you) would tend to suggest focus on the person until you determine danger levels, etc.
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