Case Forming First!

[HankL]

I have reshaped a case here and there but have never run into this before. Going from .280 Rem to .280 Ackley Improved with new Remington brass. 30 cases to form with primer pockets reamed, flash holed deburred/
Sierra 150 gr Match HPBT seated to touch, Fed 210M primers and 54 gr. of H-4831. I shot 5 over the chrono with an avg. vel. of 2421 fps and a sd of 11. All cases had backed the primer a bit but were formed well.
I took the rest afield and plinked with them and after cleaning I noticed a crack on the outside of one case! With hand pressure I came up with this!

I have checked the rest of the cases with the pointed paper clip and no problems.
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[This message has been edited by HankL (edited October 16, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by HankL (edited October 16, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by HankL (edited October 16, 2000).]

[Edited by HankL on 05-27-2001 at 08:27 AM]

Sounds like these cases need to be annealed. I would not expect this with new brass though. I would definately CALL Remington. They will probably want you to send them your cases. I would not reload anymore from this lot until you talk to Remington.

[Gewehr98]

I know how you feel. That happened with me when I reformed brand new Remington .30-40 Krag brass into 6.5x53R Dutch, after only one firing. I attributed it to the Remington brass being thinner, there wasn't that much case stretch or expansion after firing, basically the same compared to my Boxer primed original military brass.

You mentioned backed-out primers, were they flattened, or just backed out easy? Backed out primers aren't necessarily a bad thing by themselves, often they indicate too light a load. 2421fps for a 150 grain bullet out of a .280 AI seems a bit sedate for that round. This has happened to me in both 8mm Mauser and .30-30 Winchester, and I freaked out at first, thinking it was either too hot a load, or a gross headspace problem. Then I simply incremented up from that beginning load by 1/10th grain at a time, and the primers stayed in place. The Speer and Accurate Arms reloading manuals make mention of this.

If it was just that one round that split apart, with no stretch rings forming inside the remaining cases, I'd say it was just that one piece of brass.

I know when going to an Ackley shoulder, the parent case's shoulder is very important for headspacing in the larger Ackley chamber. Maybe a smidgen less "bump" on the resizing die will give a tighter chambering against the "false" shoulder before firing? It's how I fireform for my 6.5-06 using resized RWS 7x64 Brenneke brass.

[HankL]

Gehwer98, The case in question's primer is a bit flattened and not backed out at all! I found 3 more that were pretty well flat as well. After closer inspection and speculation, I think that I will check all brand new brass for O.A.L while doing the other chores and clean every few shots. Thank's for the help.

[Paul B.]

HankL. A properly chambered Ackely Improved rifle should be able to headspace on the parent case. That is, a standard .280 Rem. should safely fire in your chamber. From your post, I gather you loaded up new brass to fireform into the improved case. My question is this. Did you resize the brass or run the brass through your resizing die, prior to loading? If so, your die may be improperly adjusted for your rifle, thus creating a headspace problem.
Take a paper clip and straighten it out. Form a small hook at one end so as to make it look like the letter "L", with the hook about 1/4 inch long. Run the hook down into you fired cases and see if you can feel a groove near the bottom of the case, say in the general area of where your case cracked.
If there are grooves in that area, either your rifle has been headspaced improperly, or if you resized them prior to loading them, your die is adjusted wrong. If it turns out that it is the dies, E-mail me, and I'll tell you how to adjust them so this won't happen. A quick way to see if it's the rifle is to shoot acouple of factory rounds in the gun. Then test them with the little paper clip hook. If there is a groove with the factory ammo, them you'll have to have the barrel set back and rechambered.
Hope this helps.
Paul B.

[Gewehr98]

Paul, he did check for stretch rings with the paperclip tool, read his post just below the picture...

[HankL]

Of the three out of 40 cases with flattened primers we have the one in the picture, one with a slight stretch ring and another that seems fine. All of the cases with the primer slightly backed out are fine by the paper clip test. The only thing that I did with the sizing die was to run the expander ball in and out of the necks as I always do with new brass. I really don't think that Remington wants to hear about my problems fireforming their cases.
Thank's for the help.

[Rigby]

Did your brother-in-law assist in the reloading process? If so, a possible source of fatigue could be easily identified.

[HankL]

No, But your thought process is right on line!

[Bogie]

Guys, here's what went wrong...

1) JAM the bullet way the heck into the lands when you are fire forming... You don't need to use a hot charge, just so you've got the bullet/neck aligned and the case _hard_ against the boltface. That's where you had your problem... You basically stretched the bejeezus outta the brass on your first firing. If the primer backs out, that's a sign that there was room between the boltface and the case. This'll usually happen with very light loads. Not good. Have the rifle checked for headspace, just for grins...

2) If you FL size after that, call Sinclair's and get yourself a firing pin removal/bolt takedown tool (kleindorst). Take the innards out of the bolt, and as you SLOWLY screw your FL die into your press, keep sizing the brass and trying it in the chamber. YOU HAVE TO DO THIS WITH NO RESISTANCE ON THE BOLT. When you can feel the bolt close with just a little "feel" (you'll know it when you hit it...), you're there - Lock the die down, and from here on, you'll just be bumping the brass a thousandth or so - Almost as good as just neck sizing. If possible, just neck size.

[swifter...]

Ackley chambers are supposed to have a 0.004-6" crush fit on the parent round to obviate the need to jam the bullet into the lands.
If the primer was backed out, this could be because your chamber is a skosh too long, the firing pin drove the case forward, where it expanded against the case walls and stretched rearward.
Or it could be the powder... I had a 6mmAI break a couple of cases like that, but just below the shoulder when fireforming. A change of powder (to a faster & easier to light powder) and it doesn't happen anymore.
I hope I'm wrong, but it really sounds to me like your chamber is too long. Talk to your gunsmith about it.

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The Bill of Rights, and the Golden Rule are enough for civilized behavior. The rest is window dressing. Shoot carefully, swifter...

[Bogie]

Oh yeah...

DO NOT anneal the head of the case. ONLY the mouth/shoulder. Annealing the case head can weaken the brass to the point where you'll have it coming out the bolt when it is fired. NOT GOOD.

[HankL]

Bogie, I'm not annealing anything. I'm going to check the headspace before I go any further. I purchased this rifle used from some gunfolk that I know and trust but! I'm starting to think we might have a 7MM/06 ACK IMP or worse.
Thank's for the input.
Hank

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"The harshest tyranny is that which is under the protection of legality and the banner of justice." Montesquieu