Gun safety psa!!! - Page 2

RetiredLawman · July 31, 2009, 09:12 AM

If you gentlemen won't listen to 30 years of LE experience, Then you have already made up your minds and additional information will only confuse you. I have been there, done that, and helped pick up the pieces. I repeat that I have not in all my years as a detective known a shotgun blast to fail to change a bad guys mind, usually with fatal results.

An understanding DA is very much needed when assault type weapons are utilized to stop a home invasion. Some of you may say that so long as the weapon prevails, it should not matter what is used. Point taken. However, prosecutors don't take well to guns outfitted for combat that has been a part of a protection defense. Juries don't like them, either. I seriously hope that you have good homeowner's insurance if you use a tactical equipped shotgun. The civil suit and the criminal defense will bankrupt you. You will be alive, but will life be worth living broke?

Folks, I'm not kidding. For HD, use your favorite hunting piece with the ammo that you normally hunt with and you will be much safer from prosecution when the DA reviews the case. If you are an uplands hunter, have #6 or 7.5s in the magazine. If you are a clays shooter, have 8s or 9s in the pipe of your favorite shooter. A specialty gun equipped for combat with gadgets all over it loaded with combat loads will almost assure you at the very least a civil action, or at worst a criminal prosecution.

You may take this at face value or I have wasted my time typing this post. I don't like to see people get into trouble because they are stubborn about their beliefs. Remember, I have been through many reviews with the DA. He can ruin your life with the stroke of a pen. I always recommend that there be no prosecution for a burglary or home invasion. That carries some weight but the DA, when he sees the photos of a loaded with buckshot pump gun owned by a quail hunter, lots of visions cross his mind. Visions of glory at issuing a warrant for involuntary manslaughter.

The shotgun blast may not kill your bad guy, but it will put instant brakes on even a drug crazed perp with a heavy coat on. A shotgun blast to a guy with a bullet proof Kevlar vest will knock the breath out of him and leave bruises that you wouldn't want to believe. The Kevlar factory is about 20 miles from my home and they have excellent testing facilities. A shotgun blast at 30 feet is effective with any size shot. No, the shot won't penetrate but it leaves some very nasty bruises. I've read many posts that complain that the perp may be wearing a heavy coat, thus the need for buckshot. Not to worry. Any shotgun blast will change his plans. A shotgun expends its energy on the outside while a rifle projectile expends it's energy inside the body. If a bad guys comes acalling, I don't want to kill him. I just want to protect my home. I'd rather visit him at the ER or the courtroom than to go to his funeral.

Gebtlemen, I am a retired cop that has seen lots of lives ruined by the judicial system in both civil and criminal actions though the homeowner thought he was acting properly. The Castle Doctrine does not protect you if you act outside the confines of reasonableness. That is why I suggest that you have the gun that you use in your normal shooting routines loaded with the ammo you use for that routine. It will save your life if a bad guy visits and a lot of grief when the prosecutor makes a decision on whether to have you arrested.

Not all of you, maybe none of you, will agree me. I have taken the time to clear my conscience as I feel the need to share this with you. You are my friends and I think you will understand my post if you analyze it. It contains my life's experience in this type of "castle doctine" protection. Just because your state has some measure of protection for you, the end decision is up to the DA, plus the civil attorneys that circle when they smell a dollar. Though you may be entirely innocent of wrongdoing, you are not home free at all.

My little 20 gauge that I use on the farm is beside my bed loaded with what I use on the farm, usually #6s. If I should be so unfortunate as to have uninvited guests, I am comfortable with this load and my case will receive very little notice from either the DA or my homeowner's insurance company.

Thanks for your time.

Uncle Buck · July 31, 2009, 10:00 AM

^
I agree 100%, with both the`ammo and DA Statement.

Ian0351 · July 31, 2009, 10:19 AM

Without re-hashing 6 pages of the previously mentioned closed thread... I think what Brent is getting at is: Regardless of what shells you put in your HD shotgun, be prepared for the worst if you fire without significant backstop should you fail to hit your target. While birdshot has less energy than buckshot has less energy than 9mm has less energy than .357 magnum, they all have plenty of energy to kill someone on the other side of a couple slabs of drywall.

Rule #4: Be sure of your target and what is behind/beyond it. Even if you're only shooting (insert theoretical 'underpowered' round here).

Saying that birdshot is "safe" to just shoot off in an apartment is like saying it is "safe" to shoot small calibers like .22, .25 and .32 without appropriate backstop because "they're too underpowered to kill a person anyway". Lots of people have been killed by Raven .25 Saturday Night Specials...

hogdogs · July 31, 2009, 10:33 AM

Ian is spot on!
That is all I meant. And since I use my all black 20 year old 500 to hunt, I have it loaded with the #3 buck which is the biggest I find at walmart. I have a half dozen slugs if needed. I also have a loaded (not in the pipe just the tube) .30-30 on the closet rack too...
My thread was not started for any sort of judicial defense of a SD/HD shoot. Just a public rant regarding the endless "sage"

advise folks spew forth regarding the safe aspect of bird shot in an apartment or small home.
On the judicial end of the spectrum, if you never hunt at all, a shotgun shouldn't be your choice of HD firearm? I never heard that before.
Brent

Flipper 56 · July 31, 2009, 11:11 AM

RETIRED LAWMAN said

Quote:

For HD, use your favorite hunting piece with the ammo that you normally hunt with

Are you saying that if I used my extra full choked Turkey Gun with #5 Nitro Turkey and it wasn't Turkey Season that the D.A. would look on this unfavorably?

Or am I reading too much into your advice?

RetiredLawman · July 31, 2009, 12:44 PM

I can't answer that question. It is up to the investigating officer and the prosecutor to review the case and determine if charges will be brought. It has been my experience that citizens that use the shotgun that they hunt with and the ammo that is usually used by the shooter, that charges are normally not brought. However, civil damages are almost always sought and a civil jury looks more favorably on a hunting gun with the type ammo that the hunter usually has on hand. For example, a deer hunter will usually have some buckshot in the house, whereas a quail hunter that does not hunt big game would not have the need for buckshot. A person that hunts geese would have large shot and a clays shooter would have smaller shot.

A citizen that does not hunt would probably have a gun of sorts, but not a fully equipped tactical gun. A prosecutor might see "set-up" in such a case. Certainly, a civil attorney would grin from ear to ear upon seeing photos of such a rig. A jury, being the final trier of fact, is who you have to prove the matter to. They will want to know if there has ever been any contact between the shooter and perp and under what circumstances. When they look at the shotgun and see a hunting gun that was loaded with the hunter's choice for his game, they are more favorably impressed than to be shown a gun that was equipped only to kill humans. A tactical gun with a short barrel and wide open choke loaded down with expensive sights, flashlights, lasers, heat shields, etc., does not make a good impression on a prosecutor or a civil jury. It is almost worthless for anything else but inflicting damage onto humans.

Use what you want to. I have no "per se" advice to give. Just 30+ years of experience picking up the pieces and seeing good and otherwise decent people getting ruined by the system. I try to play it safe and even then, should I have to defend myself or my property, I will be involved with the system far longer than I want to be. It is no simple matter and we need to think about the consequences before we select a dedicated shotgun and load for home defense purposes. With attorney fees exceeding $300 per hours, think ahead so that the time you have to spend with the legal system is minimized. Even if you do it by the book, you are still in for a rude awakening.

In the meantime, I'll keep my 20 gauge Nova at my bedside loaded with #6s. I have no fear that it will keep me safe from intruders and from the legal system. I've worked too hard to see it all go away in legal fees and civil damages. Lawyers will take any kind of case now, even those that they know that have no merit. The homeowner's insurance companies had rather settle than go before a jury. Even with my assurance that my Nova will keep me safe from harm, it won't stop the lawyers from trying to ruin me. I am a step ahead with my set-up if the bad guy's family smells money.

Flipper 56 · July 31, 2009, 09:40 PM

20 Gauge Loaded with #6s......that would be my Ithaca Grouse gun with an Imp. Cyl. choke. I live in a mighty rural section. The response time could be a while. With all due respect I would like to be alive to spend some of that $$$ that I am not wasting on litigation.

johnbt · July 31, 2009, 09:51 PM

"and, I'm guessing, no integral reinforcing steel, no significant lateral resistance. Also, a 14-inch brick wall is seldom solid, they are typically constructed in two wythes with a cavity between. Starting in the early 1800's, masonry cavity walls have been used for protection against moisture penetration. A 6-inch cavity is typical in a 14-inch brick wall."

No significant lateral resistance? You mean other than the weight of all that brick holding the ones underneath in place? Let's see; keeping in mind we're talking 10-foot ceilings: basement, first floor, second floor, steep tall attic, three chimneys roughly 3' x 5', etc. And knee-high parapet walls on the sides. They're convenient when I jump over to my elderly neighbor's roof to clean gutters, paint the metal, repoint brick, check the slate on the front from the top side, etc. It's only about 27' down and 3' over to her house.

Yep, you're guessing, you're wrong, and the walls are brick all the way through. I've punched a couple of holes through with a hammer and chisel. I've drilled through. I've used a hammer drill to anchor a second-floor sunporch. I've watched the cable guy and the Verizon FiOs guys drill through to run cable. Three houses just on my block alone have had wall modifications done - such as expanding a rear door to accommodate French doors - and guess what... solid freaking brick all the way through. 14" of it.

I've only owned this house and lived in it for 29.5 years.

So nice try, but you're wrong pure and simple. But thanks for the history lesson.

John

johnbt · July 31, 2009, 10:15 PM

"If you gentlemen won't listen to 30 years of LE experience, Then you have already made up your minds and additional information will only confuse you."

You mind if I take my legal advice from a lawyer? I like police officers. My father was a state trooper and my cousin was a county sheriff here in VA for about 30 years, but I still get legal advice from my lawyer.

I don't think it would look very good in court if I used my 3" #2 or #4 Hevi-Shot waterfowl loads at home. I can hear it now, "It's denser than lead, blah, blah, blah and it throws extra tight patterns and it penetrates more than lead, blah, blah, blah."

The other choice is 28 ga. skeet loads. Nope. No thanks.

John

zippy13 · August 1, 2009, 04:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnbt

No significant lateral resistance? You mean other than the weight of all that brick holding the ones underneath in place?

Not exactly, lateral resistance doesn't increase proportionally with the mass of a building, it refers to a building's ability to withstand wind and earthquake forces. With seismic loads, the weight of your structure works against you. As the ground moves, the foundations must follow. Yet, the inertia of the walls, upper floors and roof tends to keep them in place. Lateral resistance is the ability to keep the roof, foundation, and everything in between, working together while the ground and foundation are moving violently. I mention this because Richmond is the yellow portion of the Central Virginia Seismic Zone, and unreinforced masonry structures typically perform poorly during seismic events. This was brought to national attention with the Long Beach earthquake of 1933 where 120 people died. Most of the damage occurred in unreinforced masonry buildings, especially schools. In the aftermath, building codes were rewritten introducing requirements for lateral resistance. John, from what you've said, your place was probably constructed after the last big one in Virginia, the Pearisburg quake of 1897, and before 1933. I makes me wonder why your builders went to the extra expense of solid masonry construction.

Enough gloom and history, getting back on topic... With your solid masonry construction, you're well outside the typical parameters when it comes to discussions of wall penetration by bird shot. And, as you said, there's always the windows.

johnbt · August 1, 2009, 11:09 AM

1916. To the best of my knowledge - living in the area since 1972 - the entire Fan and Museum District was built this way between 1899-ish and 1920-something. I have lots of friends in the construction/renovation business and a buddy who has run his plumbing company for 35 years, so I've heard a lot of stories about pain in the elbow jobs they've done.

The older houses (shallow coal burning fireplaces in each room, etc) tend to have a crawl space with a partial basement pit for the heating system. The 'foundations' are brick on dirt.

Can you say termites? The newer ones like mine

have full basements with a concrete floor and a wood burning fireplace or 3.

Who knows. I have a copy of a research paper around here somewhere that tells a lot about the who/when/how much, but nothing about why they built this way. Too much money maybe, it was the city's western suburbs of that time. My little 1350 sq.ft. house still has the maid's room in the basement. My neighbor's house was built for her uncle and she still has the floor buzzer button under the dining room table.

We had a quake 5 years ago that cracked a lot of plaster and loosen some mortar. It was centered west of town and wasn't too large, but I heard it and could see stuff sway.

John

RetiredLawman · August 1, 2009, 11:15 AM

John, notice that I stated that I was not giving advice. I was wasting my time giving you my lifetime of experience. None of it is advice.

Please continue to pay your lawyer for real advice. Be sure to bring your checkbook.

sparkly_flea · August 1, 2009, 01:47 PM

Very sensible and pragmatic approach to the question of HD and shotgun loads. Here's to hoping we don't have to come back to the forum with our own real life experience. Appreciate it.

RetiredLawman · August 1, 2009, 02:44 PM

My kin folks were all bootleggers and drunks, a few of them chicken thieves. My family disinherited me for being a cop. I appreciate that your folks were law officers and that you picked up a lot of common sense from them. My folks weren't LEOs, I was. As a supervisory special agent coming up through the ranks, first as a traffic cop, then a real cop, then a detective, then a supervisor, my years of experience are worthless? I have received several private messages from this site thanking me for my common sense approach.

Please disregard my posts as advice. They are not advice. If you want advice from someone who does not care about anything but your wallet, by all means seek out your nearest purveyor of the law. I charge you nothing for giving you what I have seen happen to good and decent folks over my lifetime.

I should have known better than to post on any thread concerning HD. My apologies to one and all. Do not regard my foolish posts as legal advice, please. I'm just an old man thinking about what I've seen go bad over my lifetime.

Uncle Buck · August 1, 2009, 04:28 PM

Retired Lawman,
I thought what you wrote was sound, simple and very accurate. I read a lot of your post and I appreciate your experiences and even more, appreciate you sharing them with us.

Buck

ebutler462 · August 1, 2009, 04:31 PM

Easy there, lawman. Your thinking is right down my alley. I like the way you put things into words. I can understand where you are coming from. I don't have much to say about home defense as everyone has already made up their minds about what they shall use against the zombies. Carry on!

johnbt · August 1, 2009, 08:16 PM

"Please continue to pay your lawyer for real advice. Be sure to bring your checkbook."

Pay? He's my fishing and poker playing bud. I think I still owe him a free steak dinner for doing my divorce for nothing but court costs in 1990.

I appreciate everybody's input, but some are closer to the action than others. Like being in court everyday.

I hope I never end up in court; I was invited to a poker game once and cleaned out 5 judges. I wonder why I didn't get invited back.

Hey, I was just lucky.

John

Flipper 56 · August 1, 2009, 09:47 PM

Uncle Buck said

Quote:

Retired Lawman,
I thought what you wrote was sound, simple and very accurate. I read a lot of your post and I appreciate your experiences and even more, appreciate you sharing them with us.

+1

Hang in there big guy.......Don't get yer Blood Pressure up

The right to an Open Discussion is a Proud Heritage around these parts

Bella · August 2, 2009, 10:39 AM

Many, many years ago I worked as an armed guard. I know it was a stupid job, but I was going to college. I worked at night and went to school in the day.

I had to have a gun permit in order to be armed. To get that, I had to go to a three day course. A large part of the course dealt with the legal and moral implications of shooting someone. The instructor gave us some good advice.

If the shooting was obviously justifiable, most DA's wouldn't make an issue of it. But, a law suit was just about guaranteed. During the civil trial the family of the person shot and their attroney were going to do everything in their power to make me look like some crazy, blood thirsty killer and the victim the salt of the earth. The gun and the ammo would be part of their evidence.

The instructor told us that having "magnum" ammo or hollow-points, or any fancy stuff would be a nail in our coffin.

One more point. In a criminal trial, all twelve jurors have to agree on guilty verdict for it to count. In a civil trail, only a majority of the jury is needed for the verdict.

ebutler462 · August 3, 2009, 08:48 AM

Bella, your post is good advice. I've known of good folks that have lost it all because they felt they needed to use deadly force. One of them was an on duty police officer that was cleared of wrongdoing by internal affairs. He went by the book all the way. He won the civil lawsuit at the cost of several hundred thousand dollars in legal fees. Plus, he was suspended until all the legal battles were settled. He was ruined financially. Yet, he had violated no rules and was using issued ammo. He is retired now and has none of the property his father left him due to the lawsuit. He is working a part-time security job to make ends meet.

I have a retired LEO concealed carry permit. According to the rules for CCW, it is almost worthless for anything. You open yourself up to all kinds of legal ramifications if you ever need to fire the weapon in defense of your life or property. According to the rules of CCW, you can't fire the weapon to defend property, only your life or the life of someone else who is imminent danger. I seldom carry anymore due to the fact that when I go into a bank, courthouse, school, etc., I can't carry the weapon. When a traffic cop stops you, the fact that you have a CCW permit is alerted and the cop acts stupidly as if he's afraid you are going to shoot him.

Sorry for the rant, folks. The legal system is in a mess. If a person has some property or a few shekels in the bank, the legal system will soon soak it up. As stated before, homeowner's insurance won't cover but so much and you are on your own when that reaches it's limit. Then no insurance company will want to cover you after the fact.

johnbt · August 3, 2009, 09:37 AM

Being broke beats being dead; to me anyway. And people do get killed during robberies and muggings. Life is a series of trade-offs. You can't stay in the house all of the time.

John

Uncle Billy · August 3, 2009, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retired Lawman

...For HD, use your favorite hunting piece with the ammo that you normally hunt with and you will be much safer from prosecution when the DA reviews the case. If you are an uplands hunter, have #6 or 7.5s in the magazine. If you are a clays shooter, have 8s or 9s in the pipe of your favorite shooter. A specialty gun equipped for combat with gadgets all over it loaded with combat loads will almost assure you at the very least a civil action, or at worst a criminal prosecution.

You may take this at face value or I have wasted my time typing this post. I don't like to see people get into trouble because they are stubborn about their beliefs. Remember, I have been through many reviews with the DA. He can ruin your life with the stroke of a pen. I always recommend that there be no prosecution for a burglary or home invasion. That carries some weight but the DA, when he sees the photos of a loaded with buckshot pump gun owned by a quail hunter, lots of visions cross his mind. Visions of glory at issuing a warrant for involuntary manslaughter.

The shotgun blast may not kill your bad guy, but it will put instant brakes on even a drug crazed perp with a heavy coat on. A shotgun blast to a guy with a bullet proof Kevlar vest will knock the breath out of him and leave bruises that you wouldn't want to believe. The Kevlar factory is about 20 miles from my home and they have excellent testing facilities. A shotgun blast at 30 feet is effective with any size shot. No, the shot won't penetrate but it leaves some very nasty bruises. I've read many posts that complain that the perp may be wearing a heavy coat, thus the need for buckshot. Not to worry. Any shotgun blast will change his plans. A shotgun expends its energy on the outside while a rifle projectile expends it's energy inside the body. If a bad guys comes acalling, I don't want to kill him. I just want to protect my home. I'd rather visit him at the ER or the courtroom than to go to his funeral.

Gebtlemen, I am a retired cop that has seen lots of lives ruined by the judicial system in both civil and criminal actions though the homeowner thought he was acting properly. The Castle Doctrine does not protect you if you act outside the confines of reasonableness. That is why I suggest that you have the gun that you use in your normal shooting routines loaded with the ammo you use for that routine. It will save your life if a bad guy visits and a lot of grief when the prosecutor makes a decision on whether to have you arrested.

Not all of you, maybe none of you, will agree me....

Well, I agree, as is obvious by my earlier post suggesting a skeet shotgun loaded with the usual reloads that folks who shoot skeet and trap have around in lots of 25, along with a Mec 600 Jr. and a few pounds of Blue Dot. A target .45, with all the accessories might be acceptable as well, along with a membership in a gun club that supports target competition, and evidence you participate in it. Any gun, if it looks like its entire purpose was putting holes in paper or game animals or breaking clay targets will not suggest you're a "cowboy" ready to draw down like John Wayne on the bad guy as the primary reason you have it...

If the weapon you use to shoot an intruder looks like a weapon with no other use than shooting people, then the DA will wonder (in front of a grand jury) if you were too anxious and too prepared to shoot at people and did so before all the other ways out of the situation were explored. So will the grand jury, and believe me, the non-gun citizenry are NOT sympathetic to uses of firearms in even legit circumstances against people, especially if the guns used had only that purpose. That's why a CCW situation is fraught with legal potholes, and almost makes CC too risky of one's future, at least in most of the situations I've ever encountered.

You better have an innocent justification for having the gun in the first place and an iron-clad justification for using it against a person no matter how nefarious the person is.

Been there, learned a lot.

ebutler462 · August 3, 2009, 06:24 PM

At last, a breath of fresh air! And common sense.

Thanks, Billy for making my day. You are a gentleman with good sense.

MLeake · August 3, 2009, 06:50 PM

... the assumption that a weapon designed solely for anti-personnel purposes could cause image problems isn't necessarily wrong, but if we're going to base all decisions on the criteria of "will it be viewed as a hunting arm or an anti-personnel weapon?" then we might as well get rid of....

Snubnosed revolvers - after all, who shoots targets with a snub? Wouldn't a competitive shooter want at least a 4" if not a 6" or longer barrel?

Most semiauto handguns - clearly, .380 and 9mm are not hunting rounds; .45acp really isn't either.

Then again, the Desert Eagle .44 might be a great hunting handgun, but it looks so mall ninja...

I guess what I'm saying is most of us are not going to limit our inventories to "strictly hunting" arms; those of us who CCW will very rarely carry a handgun that's truly suited for hunting, unless we are hunting. Big magnum revolvers don't lend themselves well to concealment for many people. (And don't load them with magnum rounds, you wouldn't use magnum rounds for hunting... oh, wait...)

I agree that ideally, any weapon used for SD will look at least reasonably innocuous. On the other hand, a lot of innocuous guns are impractical for defensive use. And some add-ons that could trigger a DA would include laser sights, for instance; yet a lot of older shooters, with weakening vision, use lasers because they have a hard time focusing on iron sights and the target...

My take on all this is that if a shooting isn't necessary, even if it might be legal, do your best to avoid putting yourself in a position where you have to take the shot. If a shooting is necessary, be mentally prepared to explain why you felt your life, or the life of another (assuming you are in a state that allows defense of third parties) was in jeopardy, AFTER you've consulted with an attorney, and in the presence of your attorney.

shortwave · August 3, 2009, 07:02 PM

RetiredLawman, learning from the experience`s of an 'old man' is something I hope I never get to old to do. Thanks for your sincere post, Shortwave.

July 31, 2009, 09:12 AM	#26
RetiredLawman Senior Member Join Date: March 31, 2008 Posts: 133	If you gentlemen won't listen to 30 years of LE experience, Then you have already made up your minds and additional information will only confuse you. I have been there, done that, and helped pick up the pieces. I repeat that I have not in all my years as a detective known a shotgun blast to fail to change a bad guys mind, usually with fatal results. An understanding DA is very much needed when assault type weapons are utilized to stop a home invasion. Some of you may say that so long as the weapon prevails, it should not matter what is used. Point taken. However, prosecutors don't take well to guns outfitted for combat that has been a part of a protection defense. Juries don't like them, either. I seriously hope that you have good homeowner's insurance if you use a tactical equipped shotgun. The civil suit and the criminal defense will bankrupt you. You will be alive, but will life be worth living broke? Folks, I'm not kidding. For HD, use your favorite hunting piece with the ammo that you normally hunt with and you will be much safer from prosecution when the DA reviews the case. If you are an uplands hunter, have #6 or 7.5s in the magazine. If you are a clays shooter, have 8s or 9s in the pipe of your favorite shooter. A specialty gun equipped for combat with gadgets all over it loaded with combat loads will almost assure you at the very least a civil action, or at worst a criminal prosecution. You may take this at face value or I have wasted my time typing this post. I don't like to see people get into trouble because they are stubborn about their beliefs. Remember, I have been through many reviews with the DA. He can ruin your life with the stroke of a pen. I always recommend that there be no prosecution for a burglary or home invasion. That carries some weight but the DA, when he sees the photos of a loaded with buckshot pump gun owned by a quail hunter, lots of visions cross his mind. Visions of glory at issuing a warrant for involuntary manslaughter. The shotgun blast may not kill your bad guy, but it will put instant brakes on even a drug crazed perp with a heavy coat on. A shotgun blast to a guy with a bullet proof Kevlar vest will knock the breath out of him and leave bruises that you wouldn't want to believe. The Kevlar factory is about 20 miles from my home and they have excellent testing facilities. A shotgun blast at 30 feet is effective with any size shot. No, the shot won't penetrate but it leaves some very nasty bruises. I've read many posts that complain that the perp may be wearing a heavy coat, thus the need for buckshot. Not to worry. Any shotgun blast will change his plans. A shotgun expends its energy on the outside while a rifle projectile expends it's energy inside the body. If a bad guys comes acalling, I don't want to kill him. I just want to protect my home. I'd rather visit him at the ER or the courtroom than to go to his funeral. Gebtlemen, I am a retired cop that has seen lots of lives ruined by the judicial system in both civil and criminal actions though the homeowner thought he was acting properly. The Castle Doctrine does not protect you if you act outside the confines of reasonableness. That is why I suggest that you have the gun that you use in your normal shooting routines loaded with the ammo you use for that routine. It will save your life if a bad guy visits and a lot of grief when the prosecutor makes a decision on whether to have you arrested. Not all of you, maybe none of you, will agree me. I have taken the time to clear my conscience as I feel the need to share this with you. You are my friends and I think you will understand my post if you analyze it. It contains my life's experience in this type of "castle doctine" protection. Just because your state has some measure of protection for you, the end decision is up to the DA, plus the civil attorneys that circle when they smell a dollar. Though you may be entirely innocent of wrongdoing, you are not home free at all. My little 20 gauge that I use on the farm is beside my bed loaded with what I use on the farm, usually #6s. If I should be so unfortunate as to have uninvited guests, I am comfortable with this load and my case will receive very little notice from either the DA or my homeowner's insurance company. Thanks for your time. Last edited by RetiredLawman; August 1, 2009 at 03:56 PM.

July 31, 2009, 10:00 AM	#27
Uncle Buck Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2009 Location: West Central Missouri Posts: 2,592	^ I agree 100%, with both the`ammo and DA Statement. __________________ Inside Every Bright Idea Is The 50% Probability Of A Disaster Waiting To Happen.

July 31, 2009, 10:19 AM	#28
Ian0351 Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2009 Location: Washington Posts: 414	Without re-hashing 6 pages of the previously mentioned closed thread... I think what Brent is getting at is: Regardless of what shells you put in your HD shotgun, be prepared for the worst if you fire without significant backstop should you fail to hit your target. While birdshot has less energy than buckshot has less energy than 9mm has less energy than .357 magnum, they all have plenty of energy to kill someone on the other side of a couple slabs of drywall. Rule #4: Be sure of your target and what is behind/beyond it. Even if you're only shooting (insert theoretical 'underpowered' round here). Saying that birdshot is "safe" to just shoot off in an apartment is like saying it is "safe" to shoot small calibers like .22, .25 and .32 without appropriate backstop because "they're too underpowered to kill a person anyway". Lots of people have been killed by Raven .25 Saturday Night Specials... __________________ You can have your churches, I'll keep my guns. Just keep your hands off my paycheck and your eyes out of my backyard. Join the Libertarian Party! http://www.lp.org Semper Fidelis

July 31, 2009, 09:40 PM	#32
Flipper 56 Senior Member Join Date: September 23, 2008 Posts: 165	20 Gauge Loaded with #6s......that would be my Ithaca Grouse gun with an Imp. Cyl. choke. I live in a mighty rural section. The response time could be a while. With all due respect I would like to be alive to spend some of that $$$ that I am not wasting on litigation. __________________ To Err is human, To Forgive divine, But to forget is foolish.

August 1, 2009, 11:15 AM	#37
RetiredLawman Senior Member Join Date: March 31, 2008 Posts: 133	John, notice that I stated that I was not giving advice. I was wasting my time giving you my lifetime of experience. None of it is advice. Please continue to pay your lawyer for real advice. Be sure to bring your checkbook. Last edited by RetiredLawman; August 1, 2009 at 11:43 AM.

July 31, 2009, 10:33 AM	#29
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	Ian is spot on! That is all I meant. And since I use my all black 20 year old 500 to hunt, I have it loaded with the #3 buck which is the biggest I find at walmart. I have a half dozen slugs if needed. I also have a loaded (not in the pipe just the tube) .30-30 on the closet rack too... My thread was not started for any sort of judicial defense of a SD/HD shoot. Just a public rant regarding the endless "sage" advise folks spew forth regarding the safe aspect of bird shot in an apartment or small home. On the judicial end of the spectrum, if you never hunt at all, a shotgun shouldn't be your choice of HD firearm? I never heard that before. Brent

July 31, 2009, 12:44 PM	#31
RetiredLawman Senior Member Join Date: March 31, 2008 Posts: 133	I can't answer that question. It is up to the investigating officer and the prosecutor to review the case and determine if charges will be brought. It has been my experience that citizens that use the shotgun that they hunt with and the ammo that is usually used by the shooter, that charges are normally not brought. However, civil damages are almost always sought and a civil jury looks more favorably on a hunting gun with the type ammo that the hunter usually has on hand. For example, a deer hunter will usually have some buckshot in the house, whereas a quail hunter that does not hunt big game would not have the need for buckshot. A person that hunts geese would have large shot and a clays shooter would have smaller shot. A citizen that does not hunt would probably have a gun of sorts, but not a fully equipped tactical gun. A prosecutor might see "set-up" in such a case. Certainly, a civil attorney would grin from ear to ear upon seeing photos of such a rig. A jury, being the final trier of fact, is who you have to prove the matter to. They will want to know if there has ever been any contact between the shooter and perp and under what circumstances. When they look at the shotgun and see a hunting gun that was loaded with the hunter's choice for his game, they are more favorably impressed than to be shown a gun that was equipped only to kill humans. A tactical gun with a short barrel and wide open choke loaded down with expensive sights, flashlights, lasers, heat shields, etc., does not make a good impression on a prosecutor or a civil jury. It is almost worthless for anything else but inflicting damage onto humans. Use what you want to. I have no "per se" advice to give. Just 30+ years of experience picking up the pieces and seeing good and otherwise decent people getting ruined by the system. I try to play it safe and even then, should I have to defend myself or my property, I will be involved with the system far longer than I want to be. It is no simple matter and we need to think about the consequences before we select a dedicated shotgun and load for home defense purposes. With attorney fees exceeding $300 per hours, think ahead so that the time you have to spend with the legal system is minimized. Even if you do it by the book, you are still in for a rude awakening. In the meantime, I'll keep my 20 gauge Nova at my bedside loaded with #6s. I have no fear that it will keep me safe from intruders and from the legal system. I've worked too hard to see it all go away in legal fees and civil damages. Lawyers will take any kind of case now, even those that they know that have no merit. The homeowner's insurance companies had rather settle than go before a jury. Even with my assurance that my Nova will keep me safe from harm, it won't stop the lawyers from trying to ruin me. I am a step ahead with my set-up if the bad guy's family smells money.

July 31, 2009, 09:51 PM	#33
johnbt Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Richmond, Virginia USA Posts: 6,004	"and, I'm guessing, no integral reinforcing steel, no significant lateral resistance. Also, a 14-inch brick wall is seldom solid, they are typically constructed in two wythes with a cavity between. Starting in the early 1800's, masonry cavity walls have been used for protection against moisture penetration. A 6-inch cavity is typical in a 14-inch brick wall." No significant lateral resistance? You mean other than the weight of all that brick holding the ones underneath in place? Let's see; keeping in mind we're talking 10-foot ceilings: basement, first floor, second floor, steep tall attic, three chimneys roughly 3' x 5', etc. And knee-high parapet walls on the sides. They're convenient when I jump over to my elderly neighbor's roof to clean gutters, paint the metal, repoint brick, check the slate on the front from the top side, etc. It's only about 27' down and 3' over to her house. Yep, you're guessing, you're wrong, and the walls are brick all the way through. I've punched a couple of holes through with a hammer and chisel. I've drilled through. I've used a hammer drill to anchor a second-floor sunporch. I've watched the cable guy and the Verizon FiOs guys drill through to run cable. Three houses just on my block alone have had wall modifications done - such as expanding a rear door to accommodate French doors - and guess what... solid freaking brick all the way through. 14" of it. I've only owned this house and lived in it for 29.5 years. So nice try, but you're wrong pure and simple. But thanks for the history lesson. John

July 31, 2009, 10:15 PM	#34
johnbt Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Richmond, Virginia USA Posts: 6,004	"If you gentlemen won't listen to 30 years of LE experience, Then you have already made up your minds and additional information will only confuse you." You mind if I take my legal advice from a lawyer? I like police officers. My father was a state trooper and my cousin was a county sheriff here in VA for about 30 years, but I still get legal advice from my lawyer. I don't think it would look very good in court if I used my 3" #2 or #4 Hevi-Shot waterfowl loads at home. I can hear it now, "It's denser than lead, blah, blah, blah and it throws extra tight patterns and it penetrates more than lead, blah, blah, blah." The other choice is 28 ga. skeet loads. Nope. No thanks. John

August 1, 2009, 11:09 AM	#36
johnbt Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Richmond, Virginia USA Posts: 6,004	1916. To the best of my knowledge - living in the area since 1972 - the entire Fan and Museum District was built this way between 1899-ish and 1920-something. I have lots of friends in the construction/renovation business and a buddy who has run his plumbing company for 35 years, so I've heard a lot of stories about pain in the elbow jobs they've done. The older houses (shallow coal burning fireplaces in each room, etc) tend to have a crawl space with a partial basement pit for the heating system. The 'foundations' are brick on dirt. Can you say termites? The newer ones like mine have full basements with a concrete floor and a wood burning fireplace or 3. Who knows. I have a copy of a research paper around here somewhere that tells a lot about the who/when/how much, but nothing about why they built this way. Too much money maybe, it was the city's western suburbs of that time. My little 1350 sq.ft. house still has the maid's room in the basement. My neighbor's house was built for her uncle and she still has the floor buzzer button under the dining room table. We had a quake 5 years ago that cracked a lot of plaster and loosen some mortar. It was centered west of town and wasn't too large, but I heard it and could see stuff sway. John

August 1, 2009, 01:47 PM	#38
sparkly_flea Junior Member Join Date: June 7, 2009 Posts: 2	Thanks hogdogs and RetiredLawman and others Very sensible and pragmatic approach to the question of HD and shotgun loads. Here's to hoping we don't have to come back to the forum with our own real life experience. Appreciate it.

August 1, 2009, 02:44 PM	#39
RetiredLawman Senior Member Join Date: March 31, 2008 Posts: 133	My kin folks were all bootleggers and drunks, a few of them chicken thieves. My family disinherited me for being a cop. I appreciate that your folks were law officers and that you picked up a lot of common sense from them. My folks weren't LEOs, I was. As a supervisory special agent coming up through the ranks, first as a traffic cop, then a real cop, then a detective, then a supervisor, my years of experience are worthless? I have received several private messages from this site thanking me for my common sense approach. Please disregard my posts as advice. They are not advice. If you want advice from someone who does not care about anything but your wallet, by all means seek out your nearest purveyor of the law. I charge you nothing for giving you what I have seen happen to good and decent folks over my lifetime. I should have known better than to post on any thread concerning HD. My apologies to one and all. Do not regard my foolish posts as legal advice, please. I'm just an old man thinking about what I've seen go bad over my lifetime.

August 1, 2009, 04:28 PM	#40
Uncle Buck Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2009 Location: West Central Missouri Posts: 2,592	Retired Lawman, I thought what you wrote was sound, simple and very accurate. I read a lot of your post and I appreciate your experiences and even more, appreciate you sharing them with us. Buck __________________ Inside Every Bright Idea Is The 50% Probability Of A Disaster Waiting To Happen.

August 1, 2009, 04:31 PM	#41
ebutler462 Senior Member Join Date: March 16, 2007 Location: NC Posts: 437	Easy there, lawman. Your thinking is right down my alley. I like the way you put things into words. I can understand where you are coming from. I don't have much to say about home defense as everyone has already made up their minds about what they shall use against the zombies. Carry on!

August 1, 2009, 08:16 PM	#42
johnbt Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Richmond, Virginia USA Posts: 6,004	"Please continue to pay your lawyer for real advice. Be sure to bring your checkbook." Pay? He's my fishing and poker playing bud. I think I still owe him a free steak dinner for doing my divorce for nothing but court costs in 1990. I appreciate everybody's input, but some are closer to the action than others. Like being in court everyday. I hope I never end up in court; I was invited to a poker game once and cleaned out 5 judges. I wonder why I didn't get invited back. Hey, I was just lucky. John

August 2, 2009, 10:39 AM	#44
Bella Senior Member Join Date: July 6, 2009 Posts: 341	My Experience Many, many years ago I worked as an armed guard. I know it was a stupid job, but I was going to college. I worked at night and went to school in the day. I had to have a gun permit in order to be armed. To get that, I had to go to a three day course. A large part of the course dealt with the legal and moral implications of shooting someone. The instructor gave us some good advice. If the shooting was obviously justifiable, most DA's wouldn't make an issue of it. But, a law suit was just about guaranteed. During the civil trial the family of the person shot and their attroney were going to do everything in their power to make me look like some crazy, blood thirsty killer and the victim the salt of the earth. The gun and the ammo would be part of their evidence. The instructor told us that having "magnum" ammo or hollow-points, or any fancy stuff would be a nail in our coffin. One more point. In a criminal trial, all twelve jurors have to agree on guilty verdict for it to count. In a civil trail, only a majority of the jury is needed for the verdict.

August 3, 2009, 08:48 AM	#45
ebutler462 Senior Member Join Date: March 16, 2007 Location: NC Posts: 437	Bella, your post is good advice. I've known of good folks that have lost it all because they felt they needed to use deadly force. One of them was an on duty police officer that was cleared of wrongdoing by internal affairs. He went by the book all the way. He won the civil lawsuit at the cost of several hundred thousand dollars in legal fees. Plus, he was suspended until all the legal battles were settled. He was ruined financially. Yet, he had violated no rules and was using issued ammo. He is retired now and has none of the property his father left him due to the lawsuit. He is working a part-time security job to make ends meet. I have a retired LEO concealed carry permit. According to the rules for CCW, it is almost worthless for anything. You open yourself up to all kinds of legal ramifications if you ever need to fire the weapon in defense of your life or property. According to the rules of CCW, you can't fire the weapon to defend property, only your life or the life of someone else who is imminent danger. I seldom carry anymore due to the fact that when I go into a bank, courthouse, school, etc., I can't carry the weapon. When a traffic cop stops you, the fact that you have a CCW permit is alerted and the cop acts stupidly as if he's afraid you are going to shoot him. Sorry for the rant, folks. The legal system is in a mess. If a person has some property or a few shekels in the bank, the legal system will soon soak it up. As stated before, homeowner's insurance won't cover but so much and you are on your own when that reaches it's limit. Then no insurance company will want to cover you after the fact.

August 3, 2009, 09:37 AM	#46
johnbt Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Richmond, Virginia USA Posts: 6,004	Being broke beats being dead; to me anyway. And people do get killed during robberies and muggings. Life is a series of trade-offs. You can't stay in the house all of the time. John

August 3, 2009, 06:24 PM	#48
ebutler462 Senior Member Join Date: March 16, 2007 Location: NC Posts: 437	At last, a breath of fresh air! And common sense. Thanks, Billy for making my day. You are a gentleman with good sense.

August 3, 2009, 06:50 PM	#49
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	While I don't mean to be argumentative... ... the assumption that a weapon designed solely for anti-personnel purposes could cause image problems isn't necessarily wrong, but if we're going to base all decisions on the criteria of "will it be viewed as a hunting arm or an anti-personnel weapon?" then we might as well get rid of.... Snubnosed revolvers - after all, who shoots targets with a snub? Wouldn't a competitive shooter want at least a 4" if not a 6" or longer barrel? Most semiauto handguns - clearly, .380 and 9mm are not hunting rounds; .45acp really isn't either. Then again, the Desert Eagle .44 might be a great hunting handgun, but it looks so mall ninja... I guess what I'm saying is most of us are not going to limit our inventories to "strictly hunting" arms; those of us who CCW will very rarely carry a handgun that's truly suited for hunting, unless we are hunting. Big magnum revolvers don't lend themselves well to concealment for many people. (And don't load them with magnum rounds, you wouldn't use magnum rounds for hunting... oh, wait...) I agree that ideally, any weapon used for SD will look at least reasonably innocuous. On the other hand, a lot of innocuous guns are impractical for defensive use. And some add-ons that could trigger a DA would include laser sights, for instance; yet a lot of older shooters, with weakening vision, use lasers because they have a hard time focusing on iron sights and the target... My take on all this is that if a shooting isn't necessary, even if it might be legal, do your best to avoid putting yourself in a position where you have to take the shot. If a shooting is necessary, be mentally prepared to explain why you felt your life, or the life of another (assuming you are in a state that allows defense of third parties) was in jeopardy, AFTER you've consulted with an attorney, and in the presence of your attorney.

August 3, 2009, 07:02 PM	#50
shortwave Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2007 Location: SOUTHEAST, OHIO Posts: 5,970	RetiredLawman, learning from the experience`s of an 'old man' is something I hope I never get to old to do. Thanks for your sincere post, Shortwave.