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May 16, 2013, 11:16 AM | #51 |
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I would add that most men THINK they already know how to shoot. After all, they play all those 'first person shooter' games, and watch all those "Act of Valor" movies.
They come to class with lots of mis-information. Women generally come to class having never held, let alone shot, a handgun. They also ask questions men never would ask - why is a revolver called a revolver? Why isn't there a safety on a revolver ? Etc. etc. They admit they would be intimidated to ask those questions in a class with men. Conversely, there are women who have as much, or more knowledge than many men about guns and conflict resolution. These were, in my experience, the ones who sought positions in Law Enforcement. (My wife was a State Trooper and a Fed.) So, why not let the women self-select who they want as their instructor? After a basic class with a woman, they may have the self-confidence to take a class with a male.
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May 16, 2013, 11:50 AM | #52 | |||
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As I wrote way back in post 13: and
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May 16, 2013, 03:04 PM | #53 |
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Then why don't you offer a class for gay folks, Frank?
After all, our goal is to teach, and if they wouldn't participate in a class with straight people..., etc., etc. Why don't you offer different classes for for different races? Because they're all students. They all have different needs, but those needs fall to individuals, not groups. Promoting stereotypes is simply wrong, regardless of what the market says. Teaching, implying and above all setting the example that women need separate instruction without genuine need promotes a rather ugly stereotype.
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May 16, 2013, 04:10 PM | #54 |
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Why are you talking about "ethics" and promoting stereotypes when talking about classes. Thats like saying everyone should buy Hondas, because anything else is promoting stereotypes. Er...no.
This is just an additional choice, like "advanced handgun techniques" vs. "advanced hadngun techniques in a home environment." They are equally valuable to those who take them, just offer a different flavor and choice. There's no ethical issue here unless your intent in teaching the class is to be creeping (as the daughter says) on the the female participants. EDIT: I'd offer a class for "gay folks" if there was a market for it. I don't see an issue in that either. |
May 16, 2013, 04:26 PM | #55 | |
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It's hardly stereotyping to say that individuals differ in what they prefer, how they learn best, the experiences they've had, or the risks they may face; these are the main reasons why some of us think it's important to offer women-only classes. When you get right down to it, freedom is self-determination: the ability of individuals to make choices about their lives and to act on those choices. This implies that by increasing the choices available to people, one is increasing their freedom. How is it unethical to offer people a range of choices when the result is to increase their freedom? Ethical teaching involves teaching what students expect to learn in the best way we know how. One piece of this is to know where students, as individuals and as a group, are starting from, and tailoring instruction to fit that. This has nothing to do with coddling them, dumbing down the level of instruction, or lowering standards. You seem to be assuming that a women-only class must entail all of these, and will therefore be inferior to a mixed one. You may want to consider what that belief says about your underlying opinion of women themselves.
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May 16, 2013, 05:52 PM | #56 |
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Vanya, different is not the same.
Everyone wants to think of themselves (and be thought of) as different-- but the weapon doesn't care. And they aren't. If you are teaching something beyond shooting, then I agree with what's been said about women being different, and having different needs. I would also say that a class that only teaches shooting is more ethical when viewed from the viewpoint of instructing-- you can use precious minutes (and they are precious) to deliver a lecture on bra "holsters" or you can run one more type of drill, and teach your students one more thing about hitting the target and winning the fight. Personally, I can start teaching the instant we're all present, and teach as fast as the students can keep up for as long a time as is available and never teach anything except another drill, another method or another way to hit the target and win the fight. Then we can turn the lights out and do it all over again in the dark. Or with one hand. Or with a jammed weapon. I do not see how a class that delivers less in the name of... well... what is it in the name of? Political correctness? Understanding? I think not. I think it's in the name of "women can't shoot as well as men without different instruction." I understand that there are thousands of different instructors, each with their own idea about what is important and what isn't. That's why I brought up the guy at Kenmore who only lectured on Why People Own Guns-- to demonstrate that it can get out of hand so fast and so completely that it can easily become an ethics question. If women are held to the same standards in separate classes that men are, then the classes do nothing academically other than serving to reinforce the idea that those women need (or desire) a separate class. Frank has gone so far as to imply that there are women who will come to class if it's separate and won't come to class if it's mixed. He's reiterated those statements, in case anyone missed them the first time. In spite of his statements laying out the basis of the stereotype, there are those who still insist it's not a stereotype. I guess I need to add an additional complaint to my list against women's classes: methinks thou doth protest too much. If the standards in women's classes were the same, I don't believe you would need to defend them, let alone italicize them. I am, therefore, starting to believe that the standards must be lower. Finally, I recognize from the posts here that I have stepped on toes and gored sacred cows, and for that, I'm sorry. Even if none of us agree (and I doubt very seriously that we ever will) this discussion is valuable for two simple reasons. People who clearly have never considered this issue before have now thought about it, and others have read it. Those facts have value in their own right, and I'm pleased to have been a part of it.
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May 16, 2013, 06:24 PM | #57 | ||
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May 16, 2013, 06:27 PM | #58 |
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Jammer, I think you are using "ethics" in place of "Political Correctness".
My dictionary defines ethics as standards of right or wrong, a pattern of behavior and morality. So, is it morally right or wrong to teach females separately from men? Objectively it is not wrong, as long as the training opportunity is the same. Is it PC to teach them separately? No, if you believe that men & women learn alike, have the exact same motor skills, upper body strength, and come to class with the same level of background knowledge. PC demands that everyone be treated alike, even when there are physical differences. PC wants equal outcomes, rather than equal opportunities. You seem to resist the concept that in a free society, women (and men) should be allowed to choose what type of class and instructor they should attend. Now, if we were to compel women to attend a separate class than men, that would be wrong. Or if the course content differed in a material way, that too is objectively wrong. But how many men would want to learn about the use of the bra holster? How many women want to know about the "Weeping Eye" holster ? Ultimately, we should be a meritocracy, where people are judged solely on their merit, not by their gender, or any other irrelevant factor. When I needed help, I wanted a competent officer to back me, without regard to their gender, height, weight, etc. etc. PC kills, putting guns into the hands of the incompetent. Teach to a valid standard, with a valid objective minimum achievement level. Provide assistance to those who need it, but never ""adjust"" the standard to insure enough of the "right numbers" of the "right people" qualify.
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May 16, 2013, 06:27 PM | #59 |
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Jammer, you seem to have missed my point entirely.
You're still responding as if those who disagree with you were saying that women must be segregated, which isn't remotely the case. It is you who are saying that they must be taught in the way you regard as politically correct. Others are arguing in favor of offering choices, and allowing the customer to pick the one that she prefers. I'll repeat the question I asked you, and I'll even add some italics and whatnot: How is it unethical to offer people a range of choices when the result is to increase their freedom? If you don't believe that women are entitled to decide what best fits their needs, then you're either belittling them in a pretty big way, or you're putting an abstract principle ahead of their right to self-determination.
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May 16, 2013, 06:40 PM | #60 |
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Vanya, my answer is "when one of those choices is unethical."
A hypothetical example would be offering a segregated restaurant in a city of un-segregated restaurants. The fact that the others exist as choices do not make the segregated restaurant ethically acceptable.
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May 16, 2013, 06:50 PM | #61 |
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Segregation is common and if its done by a minority it's also very accepted.
Example: black entertainment television |
May 16, 2013, 07:28 PM | #62 |
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You're still not answering my question: what makes it unethical?
I'd add another one: what makes you uniquely qualified to decide that it is unethical? Part of being free, adult people is having the right, and the responsibility, to decide ethical matters for ourselves. A quick Google search will show you that women-only classes are commonplace: fitness classes of all kinds, instruction in riding motorcycles, bicycle repair, martial arts, outdoor skills -- even in software development and judging beer... What's the common denominator among all of these? They all involve activities that have traditionally been the domain of men. Does that tell you anything about the difficulties women face in learning any skill that's seen as "masculine?"
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Never let anything mechanical know you're in a hurry. Last edited by Evan Thomas; May 16, 2013 at 07:57 PM. Reason: not enough words. |
May 16, 2013, 07:39 PM | #63 | ||
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May 16, 2013, 08:31 PM | #64 |
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Vanya, I answered exactly the question you asked.
Did you mean to ask something else? The google search answer is simple: that's called the fallacy of numbers. To your last question, yes, it tells me we need instructors with higher skills. But I think we already knew that, for shooting. Spats, if all girl schools are fine, why were West Point, Yale, Harvard and on and on forced to admit women? Is segregated education fine for women but not for men?
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May 16, 2013, 09:03 PM | #65 | ||||||
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It's also not the first time you've done this in this thread: Quote:
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If you want to claim that an action is unethical, you need to show, for one thing, that people are harmed by it; merely asserting that it "perpetuates stereotypes," or whatever, doesn't stand on its own unless you can show, first, that it in fact does this, and second, that the effects of such are harmful. If an action harms no one, it's ethically neutral. If the good it does outweighs the harm, it's at least possible to argue that the action was ethical. For example, killing someone is presumed to be unethical -- except in certain very narrow circumstances, such as when a person does so as a last resort against a lethal threat. So let me rephrase the question: what specific harm is done by women-only classes, and why does that outweigh the benefits that I and others have pointed out that they offer? Quote:
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Never let anything mechanical know you're in a hurry. Last edited by Evan Thomas; May 16, 2013 at 09:55 PM. |
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May 16, 2013, 09:23 PM | #66 | |
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Ah, there we go.
The specific harm is, as I've stated before, that it promotes the stereotype that women are not capable of learning to shoot in a class that includes men, as well as the stereotype that women are not as good at learning shooting because, to use your categorization, shooting is "masculine". Vanya, have you noticed that we're not getting anywhere? Do we agree that the segregated restaurant is unethical, regardless of other choices in the same city? (This is not a trick question-- I'm looking for a straight up yes or no.) If so, how does that restaurant do in your specific harm test? I submit that it does no specific harm, other than furthering the stereotype. And that is not only a lot of harm, but it is sufficient to rule the restaurant unethical. Quote:
And yes, we can go back and redefine, for this discussion, "ethical" and "unethical", or we can jump ahead and agree on a few things-- which I tried to do with the restaurant. Yes, I can see how that comes out as "it's unethical because it's unethical", so perhaps we need to define "ethical", if only for this discussion.
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May 16, 2013, 09:34 PM | #67 |
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Vanya, brilliant.
Jammer, forgive me, but you come across like, well, a social engineer. It seems (well, no, now you've made it explicit) the very concept of separate-sex classes is inherently evil, like Jim Crow. You're going to change the culture, make it better, until co-ed classes are the norm. Why? Why do you care? This is not an ethics question at all. There's nothing unethical in realizing that simply jumbling the sexes together hurly-burly is not necessarily constructive, quite especially in this field. And the racial comparison is woefully misplaced. Unethical is teaching your students to different standards, with the obvious exception of recognizing the different aptitudes, experience and interests of your students (as our music teacher explained). Unethical is using one class primarily as a vehicle for recruiting for your next class. Keep your standards. Good on you. And keep separate classes. There is nothing mercenary in giving your clients what they want. Really, relax, friend. Men and women are quite different, and their needs and experience (hell, their physiology and neurology) are different. Embrace diversity!
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May 16, 2013, 09:51 PM | #68 | ||
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May 16, 2013, 09:53 PM | #69 | |||||
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Never let anything mechanical know you're in a hurry. Last edited by Evan Thomas; May 16, 2013 at 10:06 PM. Reason: grammer. ;) |
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May 17, 2013, 01:18 AM | #70 |
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All I know is I've been shooting for nearly 50 years and my GF can out shoot me!
If we are together and something ever happens I'm going to take cover and let her deal with it, unless there's more than 10, then I'll toss her a fresh mag. |
May 17, 2013, 01:42 AM | #71 |
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Vanya, now I'm afraid you haven't answered my questions.
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May 17, 2013, 06:36 AM | #72 | |
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May 17, 2013, 06:45 AM | #73 | |
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May 17, 2013, 11:01 AM | #74 | ||
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You're claiming that women-only classes promote negative stereotypes of women, but you haven't supported this claim in any way whatsoever, even though others have given examples that tend to refute it. You also haven't shown why the harm from this stereotyping, if it exists, outweighs the demonstrated benefits to the women who take them. Since you are unwilling or unable to offer any support for your argument, it seems that it can be reduced to this: you are personally offended by women-only classes. So what?
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May 17, 2013, 11:25 AM | #75 |
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Vanya, now I understand your point of view. Thank you.
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