Sold guns used in a crime

Don P · October 1, 2009, 10:35 AM

Has anyone sold a firearm and later, finding out that the sold firearm was used in a crime?

**tyme** · October 1, 2009, 11:03 AM

I'm sure if you interview inmates in any prison you'll find a lot of people who once owned guns, sold them, and later to their dismay were informed that the guns had been used in various crimes. Some may even have been wrongfully convicted on that basis alone.

It doesn't usually work that way, though. Even if the police (incorrectly) believe you're lying about having sold the gun, that doesn't automatically give them a case. What are the chances that the gun would remain in the same general area, and that you'd have motive and opportunity for whatever crime(s) are later linked to that gun?

If the person you sold it to committed the crime, and you don't have a good alibi, then you have to worry about false accusations if you try to claim that you were not in possession of the gun at the time of the crime. For instance: you track down the buyer, the prosecution puts them on the stand and they claim you never sold them the gun (suppose it was recovered without prints)... bad news for you if the buyer is credible.

So I would say there are benefits to using an FFL, but it's exceedingly rare to get caught up in a prosecution simply because you're the last owner of record of a firearm used in that crime.

csmsss · October 1, 2009, 11:13 AM

I never sold a gun that was later used in a crime, but had a revolver stolen from me which was. Many years ago, I bought a S&W Model 64 and had it in a dresser drawer. One day, without telling me or my girlfriend in advance, the apartment office sent a painting crew to paint our apartment and one of the painters stole it from my dresser.

A couple years later, I received a call from the Baltimore City police department informing me that my revolver had been recovered from a crime scene and that all legal proceedings had come to a conclusion, so I could come pick it up. They never would tell me exactly what had happened, except to say that it had been used in the commission of a felony. To this day, I do not know if it was used to injure another person or not.

Don P · October 1, 2009, 11:14 AM

Maybe I should have asked this a different way.
A firearm I sold back in April was used in a armed robbery in N.J.
I found this out by getting a visit from the county Sheriffs office. Thankfully I have a bill of sale with the buyers name address and ccw info and the deputy called N.J. while at my home and relayed all the info. I am just curious how the gun got to N.J. being the person who purchased it had a FLA drivers license and a ccw. Hope he has a bill of sale

koolminx · October 1, 2009, 11:25 AM

If your serial # isn't recorded on your piece, and it's used in a crime, you'll never find out...

That's one step to get the populace to back up registration of all firearms... Which I am strongly against.

Don P · October 1, 2009, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Has anyone sold a firearm and later, finding out that the sold firearm was used in a crime?

My question...... above

Quote:

If your serial # isn't recorded on your piece, and it's used in a crime, you'll never find out...

Now how did this reply answer my question

. I stated finding out it was used in a crime.

ZeSpectre · October 1, 2009, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Has anyone sold a firearm and later, finding out that the sold firearm was used in a crime?

No, but to be honest I wouldn't care very much.

If I have performed due-diligence to make sure that it was a legal buyer and nothing indicates other issues, then my responsibility for that firearm ends with the exchange of money and bill-of-sale. I'm not the "morals and behaviors" police.

I once sold a car to someone who, less than a week later, proceeded to drive drunk and slam it into a school bus (which was empty and returning from it's run thank the Maker!). When I agreed to the sale I knew that this person had a valid license and insurance but had no way of knowing that he needed a car because he'd just wrecked his previous one while drunk so I don't feel responsible for his bad choices.

Ditto_95 · October 18, 2009, 05:37 PM

My friend sold a revolver that was used to kill a TN state trooper.
He wasn't charged but the simple fact that someone died from a firearm that he sold took it's toll on him.

He was in the FFL business until recently. He got out of it because it was taking it's toll on him.

paull · October 18, 2009, 05:50 PM

Nope, but I once gave a kidney to a guy that smacked his ol' lady around every once in a while...
The guilt is underwhelming.

The car/school bus analogy above pretty much sums it up...
I find it VERY hard to believe that there are many innocents in the nation's prison system, being put there for once owning something...

Peace,
p

Glenn Dee · October 18, 2009, 05:53 PM

I had a similar experience. While I was working as a police officer in a large metropolitan Police department I purchased a S&W 36 with a 3"heavy bbl, squair but, and a tyler grip. This was purchased from a dealer/store in another jurisdiction oohhhh say two counties away. ( great back up gun) Maybe two years later I get a call from some detective from that county police department. This detective tell's me that my gun was stolen, and I was suspect for a burglary in of the gun store They wanted to talk to me, could I come out to their office. Wellll I invited them to my police station and we could do the interview there. The NYPD requires that when you obtain a firearm you must register it with the department within 48 hrs of purchase. I had. Your record of owned firearms is recorded on something called a 10 card.
Sooo these detectives show up and question me where was I on the date in question. blaa blaaa blaaaa. In the end I just happened to be working a 4x12 shift and wasnt available to have done the burglary. BUT!!!

They wanted to arrest me for stolen property firearm. Not withstanding I had a reciept for the gun dated two years prior to the burglary, and the gun was registered 24 hours after the purchase. I guess they just wanted to close the case with an arrest. After some discussion as to who was about to arrest whom... they agreed to just leave, and never darken my door again. What caused all of this? poor record keeping by the store.

hoytinak · October 18, 2009, 06:03 PM

When I was stationed in NC I sold a Springfield Champion to a guy in my unit, a couple years later he sold it to a guy (with a felony) who ended up using it in an armed robbery and shooting on base. Not really sure how CID got my name (I bought it from a gun shop here in TX) but they called me in. Apparently they thought I was the one that sold it to the criminal but I had my bill of sale and pistol permit (you have to give a pistol permit in NC when buying a handgun, even if FTF) from the other guy. Once I showed them I did the right thing they left me alone.

On a side note: The CID officer had it sitting on his desk while I was talking to him. I tried to see if I could buy it back from them but he told me after the investigation it would have to be destroyed.

greensteelforge · October 18, 2009, 06:07 PM

Registration of some kind would be advantagious, since it is a form of proof of transfer. I'm really not sure how it is that the government would work the logistics of disarmament. Any time you transfer a gun, there is no way to control it's course after the sale. I guess it would be akin to selling a car to someone who decided to operate under the influence and kill someone, why worry about it? The car, of course, IS registered, and the police would never notify a prior owner that his one-time vehicle was involved in a fatal crash. The system records only FFL sales, so law enforcement is forced to start by suspecting the last recorded owner. I do think that regardles of the legal ramifications, requirements, etc..., if you choose to sell a weapon, you have a serious responsibility to ensure that they are responsible, stable, and aren't in a desperate condition that could lead to tragedy. I tried to sell one of my AR rifles, and gave up, as I was not able to find a buyer who had a healthy attitude about the gun, just lots of guys who wanted to have something that would force others to fear/respect them.

Piper Cub · October 18, 2009, 06:16 PM

Yes. The Police tracked me down from the Wholesaler to my FFL who sold it to me 10 years ago. I sold it to a friend who sold it. It was consficated from a minor. Lucky I still had the name and address of my old friend.

October 1, 2009, 10:35 AM	#1
Don P Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2005 Location: Swamp dweller Posts: 6,187	Sold guns used in a crime Has anyone sold a firearm and later, finding out that the sold firearm was used in a crime? __________________ *NRA Life Member, NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, NRA Certified Pistol Instructor,, USPSA & Steel Challange NROI Range Officer, ICORE Range Officer, ,MAG 40 Graduate* *As you are, I once was, As I am, You will be.*

October 1, 2009, 11:03 AM	#2
tyme Staff Join Date: October 13, 2001 Posts: 3,355	I'm sure if you interview inmates in any prison you'll find a lot of people who once owned guns, sold them, and later to their dismay were informed that the guns had been used in various crimes. Some may even have been wrongfully convicted on that basis alone. It doesn't usually work that way, though. Even if the police (incorrectly) believe you're lying about having sold the gun, that doesn't automatically give them a case. What are the chances that the gun would remain in the same general area, and that you'd have motive and opportunity for whatever crime(s) are later linked to that gun? If the person you sold it to committed the crime, and you don't have a good alibi, then you have to worry about false accusations if you try to claim that you were not in possession of the gun at the time of the crime. For instance: you track down the buyer, the prosecution puts them on the stand and they claim you never sold them the gun (suppose it was recovered without prints)... bad news for you if the buyer is credible. So I would say there are benefits to using an FFL, but it's exceedingly rare to get caught up in a prosecution simply because you're the last owner of record of a firearm used in that crime. __________________ “The egg hatched...” “...the egg hatched... and a hundred baby spiders came out...” (blade runner) “Who are you?” “A friend. I'm here to prevent you from making a mistake.” “You have no idea what I'm doing here, friend.” “In specific terms, no, but I swore an oath to protect the world...” (continuum) “It's a goal you won't understand until later. Your job is to make sure he doesn't achieve the goal.” (bsg)

October 1, 2009, 11:14 AM	#4
Don P Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2005 Location: Swamp dweller Posts: 6,187	Maybe I should have asked this a different way. A firearm I sold back in April was used in a armed robbery in N.J. I found this out by getting a visit from the county Sheriffs office. Thankfully I have a bill of sale with the buyers name address and ccw info and the deputy called N.J. while at my home and relayed all the info. I am just curious how the gun got to N.J. being the person who purchased it had a FLA drivers license and a ccw. Hope he has a bill of sale __________________ *NRA Life Member, NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, NRA Certified Pistol Instructor,, USPSA & Steel Challange NROI Range Officer, ICORE Range Officer, ,MAG 40 Graduate* *As you are, I once was, As I am, You will be.*

October 18, 2009, 05:37 PM	#8
Ditto_95 Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2007 Location: Central Kentucky Posts: 154	My friend sold a revolver that was used to kill a TN state trooper. He wasn't charged but the simple fact that someone died from a firearm that he sold took it's toll on him. He was in the FFL business until recently. He got out of it because it was taking it's toll on him. __________________ Finem Respice Consider the end Principils Obsta Resist the beginings

October 18, 2009, 06:16 PM	#13
Piper Cub Junior member Join Date: February 5, 2009 Location: TEXAS Posts: 491	Yes. The Police tracked me down from the Wholesaler to my FFL who sold it to me 10 years ago. I sold it to a friend who sold it. It was consficated from a minor. Lucky I still had the name and address of my old friend. Last edited by Piper Cub; October 18, 2009 at 11:08 PM.

October 1, 2009, 11:13 AM	#3
csmsss Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Orange, TX Posts: 3,078	I never sold a gun that was later used in a crime, but had a revolver stolen from me which was. Many years ago, I bought a S&W Model 64 and had it in a dresser drawer. One day, without telling me or my girlfriend in advance, the apartment office sent a painting crew to paint our apartment and one of the painters stole it from my dresser. A couple years later, I received a call from the Baltimore City police department informing me that my revolver had been recovered from a crime scene and that all legal proceedings had come to a conclusion, so I could come pick it up. They never would tell me exactly what had happened, except to say that it had been used in the commission of a felony. To this day, I do not know if it was used to injure another person or not.

October 1, 2009, 11:25 AM	#5
koolminx Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2009 Posts: 520	If your serial # isn't recorded on your piece, and it's used in a crime, you'll never find out... That's one step to get the populace to back up registration of all firearms... Which I am strongly against.

October 18, 2009, 05:50 PM	#9
paull Junior member Join Date: November 9, 1999 Location: SE Texas, 'tween Houston & Galveston Posts: 157	Nope, but I once gave a kidney to a guy that smacked his ol' lady around every once in a while... The guilt is underwhelming. The car/school bus analogy above pretty much sums it up... I find it VERY hard to believe that there are many innocents in the nation's prison system, being put there for once owning something... Peace, p

October 18, 2009, 05:53 PM	#10
Glenn Dee Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2009 Location: South Florida Posts: 1,560	I had a similar experience. While I was working as a police officer in a large metropolitan Police department I purchased a S&W 36 with a 3"heavy bbl, squair but, and a tyler grip. This was purchased from a dealer/store in another jurisdiction oohhhh say two counties away. ( great back up gun) Maybe two years later I get a call from some detective from that county police department. This detective tell's me that my gun was stolen, and I was suspect for a burglary in of the gun store They wanted to talk to me, could I come out to their office. Wellll I invited them to my police station and we could do the interview there. The NYPD requires that when you obtain a firearm you must register it with the department within 48 hrs of purchase. I had. Your record of owned firearms is recorded on something called a 10 card. Sooo these detectives show up and question me where was I on the date in question. blaa blaaa blaaaa. In the end I just happened to be working a 4x12 shift and wasnt available to have done the burglary. BUT!!! They wanted to arrest me for stolen property firearm. Not withstanding I had a reciept for the gun dated two years prior to the burglary, and the gun was registered 24 hours after the purchase. I guess they just wanted to close the case with an arrest. After some discussion as to who was about to arrest whom... they agreed to just leave, and never darken my door again. What caused all of this? poor record keeping by the store.

October 18, 2009, 06:03 PM	#11
hoytinak Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 5,721	When I was stationed in NC I sold a Springfield Champion to a guy in my unit, a couple years later he sold it to a guy (with a felony) who ended up using it in an armed robbery and shooting on base. Not really sure how CID got my name (I bought it from a gun shop here in TX) but they called me in. Apparently they thought I was the one that sold it to the criminal but I had my bill of sale and pistol permit (you have to give a pistol permit in NC when buying a handgun, even if FTF) from the other guy. Once I showed them I did the right thing they left me alone. On a side note: The CID officer had it sitting on his desk while I was talking to him. I tried to see if I could buy it back from them but he told me after the investigation it would have to be destroyed.

October 18, 2009, 06:07 PM	#12
greensteelforge Member Join Date: September 11, 2009 Posts: 90	Registration of some kind would be advantagious, since it is a form of proof of transfer. I'm really not sure how it is that the government would work the logistics of disarmament. Any time you transfer a gun, there is no way to control it's course after the sale. I guess it would be akin to selling a car to someone who decided to operate under the influence and kill someone, why worry about it? The car, of course, IS registered, and the police would never notify a prior owner that his one-time vehicle was involved in a fatal crash. The system records only FFL sales, so law enforcement is forced to start by suspecting the last recorded owner. I do think that regardles of the legal ramifications, requirements, etc..., if you choose to sell a weapon, you have a serious responsibility to ensure that they are responsible, stable, and aren't in a desperate condition that could lead to tragedy. I tried to sell one of my AR rifles, and gave up, as I was not able to find a buyer who had a healthy attitude about the gun, just lots of guys who wanted to have something that would force others to fear/respect them.

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