Recoil

Doc Holliday 1950 · December 18, 2014, 11:01 PM

What determines the force of recoil in a 2 or 4 inch 357 mag revolver? is it
Muzzle Energy ft·lb or Muzzle Velocity ft/sec. or a combo of both?
I apologize if this has been asked before, but as I said before, 45 yrs. ago when I was on the Police Reserves you used what the Police used. Today, I am totally
lost. There are so many choices and I do not re-load my ammo. As always, all responses are welcome and will be avidly considered.

Axelwik · December 18, 2014, 11:42 PM

Each action has an equal and opposite action. The more energy a gun puts out, the more energy that comes back. Mass of the gun comes into play however, and the more mass the gun has, the more energy it takes to move it. To the shooter this translates to less recoil.

A 16 ounce snubby will have far more recoil than a large frame steel revolver given the same load.

Other factors such as grip rear surface area play a role in perceived recoil. Recoil may be the same, but if that force is spread over a larger area of the hand it feels like less recoil.

Look up Newton's second and third laws of physics.

Clark · December 19, 2014, 12:09 AM

The free recoil velocity of a gun is equal to [the velocity of the bullet times the weight of the bullet plus the 4700 fps* times the weight of the powder] divided by the weight of the gun.

The recoil energy of the gun is the velocity squared times the gun mass.

The force on the hand is mass of the hand times the acceleration of the hand.

The threshold for pain in the hand is skin pressure ~ 20 psi.

*That is the velocity for center of mass of the gas given in the book, "Hayes Elements of Ordnance" 1939.

TraumaRN · December 19, 2014, 12:22 AM

I recommend Beartooth Bullets web site, great info for reloaders and online ballistic calculators to help find solutions for questions you have not thought to ask yet

DaleA · December 19, 2014, 01:25 AM

A fairly technical discussion about recoil is going on here:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=555506

it's about rifles but the math and concepts still apply...

UNLESS...maybe you want to talk about the difference due to barrel length? Maybe thinking the shorter barrel might flip up more than the longer one?

I dunno.

When these discussions start I get out the popcorn and watch the heavy hitters have at it.

SSA · December 19, 2014, 02:14 AM

For the actual numbers, the online calculators are good. You need to know the powder charge and the velocity.
I've chronographed some 357 factory loads and some handloads. My observation is the felt recoil tracks pretty well with the muzzle energy.
Factory loads that produce 500 ft-lb of muzzle energy kick harder than loads with 400 ft-lb or less, regardless of bullet weight. Full power loads are all about the same. 110 grain Winchesters, and the Fiocchi 357 load with the Hornady 158 gr XTP, don't kick bad, and they're lower energy. 38 Specials don't kick.
For felt recoil from a 357, to me the grip, and how the grip fits my hand, are as important as the actual recoil.

Clark · December 19, 2014, 03:17 AM

I had over 100,000 posts on the gun forum on usenet in the 1990s before there was a gun list on the www.

I have seen a lot of gun posts.

Confusing bullet kinetic energy with momentum to calculate recoil will never end.

silvermane_1 · December 19, 2014, 08:25 AM

well Doc, the best way to put it would be, the heavier the gun, the less "felt" recoil, a gun with a longer bbl is going to heavier.

SSA · December 19, 2014, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Confusing bullet kinetic energy with momentum to calculate recoil will never end.

And it will never work.
I hope you didn't translate 'my observation ... felt recoil...' to mean 'calculated recoil.'

g.willikers · December 19, 2014, 02:35 PM

Especially for handguns, much of the recoil, or lack of it, is due to the effectiveness of the grip.
At least as much the shooters' gripping technique as the design and shape of the grip itself.

Doyle · December 19, 2014, 02:39 PM

G. willikers, you are speaking of "felt recoil" or "transmitted" recoil (several terms for the same thing). I agree. It applies to rifles as well. Lots of people claim that a 30-30 is a soft recoiling rifle - and if you look at pure calculated numbers they would be right. However, anyone who shoots a straight-stocked Win '94 without a recoil pad can attest to the fact that it transmits what recoil there is straight into the shooters shoulder.

December 18, 2014, 11:01 PM	#1
Doc Holliday 1950 Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2014 Location: Bout as south as it gets Posts: 1,238	Recoil What determines the force of recoil in a 2 or 4 inch 357 mag revolver? is it Muzzle Energy ft·lb or Muzzle Velocity ft/sec. or a combo of both? I apologize if this has been asked before, but as I said before, 45 yrs. ago when I was on the Police Reserves you used what the Police used. Today, I am totally lost. There are so many choices and I do not re-load my ammo. As always, all responses are welcome and will be avidly considered.

December 18, 2014, 11:42 PM	#2
Axelwik Senior Member Join Date: March 12, 2012 Location: Land of Enchantment Posts: 436	Each action has an equal and opposite action. The more energy a gun puts out, the more energy that comes back. Mass of the gun comes into play however, and the more mass the gun has, the more energy it takes to move it. To the shooter this translates to less recoil. A 16 ounce snubby will have far more recoil than a large frame steel revolver given the same load. Other factors such as grip rear surface area play a role in perceived recoil. Recoil may be the same, but if that force is spread over a larger area of the hand it feels like less recoil. Look up Newton's second and third laws of physics. Last edited by Axelwik; December 19, 2014 at 12:05 AM.

December 19, 2014, 12:09 AM	#3
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	The free recoil velocity of a gun is equal to [the velocity of the bullet times the weight of the bullet plus the 4700 fps* times the weight of the powder] divided by the weight of the gun. The recoil energy of the gun is the velocity squared times the gun mass. The force on the hand is mass of the hand times the acceleration of the hand. The threshold for pain in the hand is skin pressure ~ 20 psi. *That is the velocity for center of mass of the gas given in the book, "Hayes Elements of Ordnance" 1939. __________________ The word 'forum" does not mean "not criticizing books." "Ad hominem fallacy" is not the same as point by point criticism of books. If you bought the book, and believe it all, it may FEEL like an ad hominem attack, but you might strive to accept other points of view may exist. Are we a nation of competing ideas, or a nation of forced conformity of thought?

December 19, 2014, 03:17 AM	#7
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	I had over 100,000 posts on the gun forum on usenet in the 1990s before there was a gun list on the www. I have seen a lot of gun posts. Confusing bullet kinetic energy with momentum to calculate recoil will never end. __________________ The word 'forum" does not mean "not criticizing books." "Ad hominem fallacy" is not the same as point by point criticism of books. If you bought the book, and believe it all, it may FEEL like an ad hominem attack, but you might strive to accept other points of view may exist. Are we a nation of competing ideas, or a nation of forced conformity of thought?

December 19, 2014, 08:25 AM	#8
silvermane_1 Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2011 Location: Burien,WA Posts: 897	well Doc, the best way to put it would be, the heavier the gun, the less "felt" recoil, a gun with a longer bbl is going to heavier. __________________ Rugers:SR1911 CMD,MK 3 .22lr 6",Sec. Six '76 liberty .357 4",SRH .480 Ruger 7.5",Mini-14 188 5.56/.233 18.5", Marlins: 795 .22lr 16.5",30aw 30-30 20",Mossberg:Mav. 88 Tact. 12 ga, 18.5",ATR 100 .270 Win. 22",S&W:SW9VE 9mm 4",Springfield:XD .357sig 4", AKs:CAI PSL-54C, WASR 10/63, WW74,SLR-106c

December 19, 2014, 12:22 AM	#4
TraumaRN Member Join Date: June 27, 2014 Posts: 46	I recommend Beartooth Bullets web site, great info for reloaders and online ballistic calculators to help find solutions for questions you have not thought to ask yet

December 19, 2014, 01:25 AM	#5
DaleA Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2002 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 5,313	A fairly technical discussion about recoil is going on here: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=555506 it's about rifles but the math and concepts still apply... UNLESS...maybe you want to talk about the difference due to barrel length? Maybe thinking the shorter barrel might flip up more than the longer one? I dunno. When these discussions start I get out the popcorn and watch the heavy hitters have at it.

December 19, 2014, 02:14 AM	#6
SSA Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2010 Posts: 641	For the actual numbers, the online calculators are good. You need to know the powder charge and the velocity. I've chronographed some 357 factory loads and some handloads. My observation is the felt recoil tracks pretty well with the muzzle energy. Factory loads that produce 500 ft-lb of muzzle energy kick harder than loads with 400 ft-lb or less, regardless of bullet weight. Full power loads are all about the same. 110 grain Winchesters, and the Fiocchi 357 load with the Hornady 158 gr XTP, don't kick bad, and they're lower energy. 38 Specials don't kick. For felt recoil from a 357, to me the grip, and how the grip fits my hand, are as important as the actual recoil.

December 19, 2014, 02:35 PM	#10
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	Especially for handguns, much of the recoil, or lack of it, is due to the effectiveness of the grip. At least as much the shooters' gripping technique as the design and shape of the grip itself. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

December 19, 2014, 02:39 PM	#11
Doyle Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2007 Location: Rainbow City, Alabama Posts: 7,167	G. willikers, you are speaking of "felt recoil" or "transmitted" recoil (several terms for the same thing). I agree. It applies to rifles as well. Lots of people claim that a 30-30 is a soft recoiling rifle - and if you look at pure calculated numbers they would be right. However, anyone who shoots a straight-stocked Win '94 without a recoil pad can attest to the fact that it transmits what recoil there is straight into the shooters shoulder.