Kirst Conversion to .45 LC

jolasa · October 6, 2010, 05:12 PM

Just talked to the Kirst Konverter folks.

My contact at Kirst was Jay ([email protected]) on October 4, 2010.

After shipping my 1858 Pietta Remington to Kirst, Jay quoted as follows:

1. $80.00 to cut (and finish to match) a loading channel in the frame (you may not want this - you can just remove the cylinder, remove spent cartridges, load more, put cylinder back in). But sure is easier to just load .45 LC cartridges thru a loading channel in the frame, without having to remove the cylinder.

2. $20 for return postage.

3. $265.00 - they supply appropriate Kirst conversion cylinder for .45 LC.

4. They will make sure you can still use the original cylinder for cap and ball, as well as the conversion cylinder for .45 LC cartridges. So you can go back and forth.

5. They will adjust and fix any timing issues that come up (rareley needed), all for the same price.

Total $365.00. Sounds like a deal to me.

Jon

flatheadsal · October 6, 2010, 06:25 PM

Just remember Jon, unless I'm wrong, once that channel is cut, the pistol is no longer a black powder pistol only, it becomes technically a cartridge pistol, just a little caveat here, flathead

mykeal · October 6, 2010, 09:58 PM

That's not correct. The channel can also be used to make installing caps and removing spent caps easier, so it is not unique to a cartridge firing weapon. Further, since the gun is capable of firing cartridges with the cartridge cylinder installed regardless of whether the channel is cut or not, it actually serves no function in making the gun a cartridge gun.

jolasa · October 7, 2010, 12:18 PM

So who is right here?

Where can I find the definitive information on what happens if I cut a loading channel in the frame of my 1858 Remington, and use it for BOTH cap and ball land cartridges?

Do I then own a cartridge revolver, with all the usual restrictions, or do I still own a black powder cap and ball with no restrictions?

I live in California. Is there a place I can look and find out?

noelf2 · October 7, 2010, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Do I then own a cartridge revolver, with all the usual restrictions, or do I still own a black powder cap and ball with no restrictions?

Depends on which cylinder you have in it at the time. With the Kirst cylinder it has a cartridge groove, shoots cartridges, and is restricted. With a C&B cylinder it has a nipple access groove mod for percussion caps, and isn't restricted. No brainer, but doubt you find anything definitive. I'll also bet that Kirst will send it back to you with the C&B cylinder in it.

ClemBert · October 7, 2010, 04:50 PM

Oh lord...not the Republik of Kalifornia again.

A couple of things. I've seen Jay Strite's (Ravens Roost) work with regard to the channel cut he makes. It will look as professional as to believe it came from the factory originally like that. Jay is a gunsmith who is also a joint business partner with Kirst. For what you want to do he is the first person I would go to for that particular work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by noelf2

I'll also bet that Kirst will send it back to you with the C&B cylinder in it.

I've seen a revolver show up with the converter cylinder installed and the cap-n-ball cylinder sitting off to the side. It kind of surprised me too.

The mailing process isn't a big deal. You can have him mail the conversion cylinder separately from the cap-n-ball revolver. IMHO I believe with the conversion cylinder installed that it IS a true firearm. But what the heck do I know? Not that that should be a problem. However, is there a reason that you specifically can't own a firearm? That is the question that inquiring minds want to know. I guess you are wondering if after you install the conversion cylinder are you required to get it registered or have a background check performed.

Contact a local SASS/CAS club and inquire as to their opinion and have them cite to you the legal requirement based on Kalifornia statutes.

p.s. with just the cap-n-ball cylinder installed its just a cap-n-ball revolver. the channel cut doesn't change that.

andrewstorm · October 15, 2010, 12:00 PM

a konverter is a drop in replacement part,as they are only rated as for cowboy action loads,or blanks,for reenactments,these are not designed for conventional fixed ammo,as they are designed as sub sonic ,as antique cartridges (PRE1899)were designed for black powder,and thus are antique replicas, the black powder frame being altered,has no bearing on the status of the black powder frame,as mykeal previously stated on another post,the criminal element in our country,do not buy antique arms on the streets,they are after modern conventional ammo firing high capacity weapons, most cartridge makers state on the box that (this ammo should only be used in modern arms in good condition) not pre 1899 design,that's why the they stamp for black powder only!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the use of smokeless in these replicas is dangerous, even cowboy loads can be double loaded and create a dangerous condition,

Chuckwagonsam · October 20, 2010, 09:50 AM

I have R&D conversions for my 1860's. I had to send the guns to them because they locked up with the conversions in them. They were emphatic that I did not send the guns with the conversions in them but with the c&b cylinder. I could however send it all in the same box.

RavensRoost · December 3, 2010, 02:24 PM

From Ravens Roost and the Kirst Company,

When we install a converter we do the work on the customers gun. When doing this we are acting as a gunsmith and as long as the customer owns the gun before we start work we can return the gun directly back to the customer. No transfer is needed and we can send it with the converter in the gun.
Once the loading groove is cut the revolver is a firearm, it can still be used as a percussion gun, but it is a firearm
The customer must comply with all state laws! For California the only advice that counts is the DOJ's advice.
Federal Law allows the individual and Licensed Gunsmiths and Manufacturers to Make a firearm. Also there is a 50 gun exemption to the excise tax. You can make 50 firearms without paying the tax if you make 51 you will owe the tax on all 51.
You can resell your converted firearm!! As with any firearm sale you must comply with State and Federal Law. Anyone who tells you that you cannot resell your conversion refer them to the BATF, as they DO NOT know what they are talking about.
The reason that we ask customers to send the percusion revolver with the percusion cylinder and not the converter in it is the percussion revolver is not considered a firearm so you do not need to declare it as such which makes it easier to deal with the clerks at the UPS store or FedX.

Jay Strite
Kirst Company

October 6, 2010, 05:12 PM	#1
jolasa Member Join Date: September 29, 2010 Location: Bay Area, California Posts: 60	Kirst Conversion to .45 LC Just talked to the Kirst Konverter folks. My contact at Kirst was Jay ([email protected]) on October 4, 2010. After shipping my 1858 Pietta Remington to Kirst, Jay quoted as follows: 1. $80.00 to cut (and finish to match) a loading channel in the frame (you may not want this - you can just remove the cylinder, remove spent cartridges, load more, put cylinder back in). But sure is easier to just load .45 LC cartridges thru a loading channel in the frame, without having to remove the cylinder. 2. $20 for return postage. 3. $265.00 - they supply appropriate Kirst conversion cylinder for .45 LC. 4. They will make sure you can still use the original cylinder for cap and ball, as well as the conversion cylinder for .45 LC cartridges. So you can go back and forth. 5. They will adjust and fix any timing issues that come up (rareley needed), all for the same price. Total $365.00. Sounds like a deal to me. Jon

October 15, 2010, 12:00 PM	#7
andrewstorm Junior member Join Date: October 4, 2009 Posts: 198	konverter a konverter is a drop in replacement part,as they are only rated as for cowboy action loads,or blanks,for reenactments,these are not designed for conventional fixed ammo,as they are designed as sub sonic ,as antique cartridges (PRE1899)were designed for black powder,and thus are antique replicas, the black powder frame being altered,has no bearing on the status of the black powder frame,as mykeal previously stated on another post,the criminal element in our country,do not buy antique arms on the streets,they are after modern conventional ammo firing high capacity weapons, most cartridge makers state on the box that (this ammo should only be used in modern arms in good condition) not pre 1899 design,that's why the they stamp for black powder only!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the use of smokeless in these replicas is dangerous, even cowboy loads can be double loaded and create a dangerous condition,

October 6, 2010, 06:25 PM	#2
flatheadsal Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2008 Posts: 180	Just remember Jon, unless I'm wrong, once that channel is cut, the pistol is no longer a black powder pistol only, it becomes technically a cartridge pistol, just a little caveat here, flathead

October 6, 2010, 09:58 PM	#3
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	That's not correct. The channel can also be used to make installing caps and removing spent caps easier, so it is not unique to a cartridge firing weapon. Further, since the gun is capable of firing cartridges with the cartridge cylinder installed regardless of whether the channel is cut or not, it actually serves no function in making the gun a cartridge gun.

October 7, 2010, 12:18 PM	#4
jolasa Member Join Date: September 29, 2010 Location: Bay Area, California Posts: 60	So who is right here? Where can I find the definitive information on what happens if I cut a loading channel in the frame of my 1858 Remington, and use it for BOTH cap and ball land cartridges? Do I then own a cartridge revolver, with all the usual restrictions, or do I still own a black powder cap and ball with no restrictions? I live in California. Is there a place I can look and find out?

October 20, 2010, 09:50 AM	#8
Chuckwagonsam Junior Member Join Date: October 18, 2010 Posts: 11	I have R&D conversions for my 1860's. I had to send the guns to them because they locked up with the conversions in them. They were emphatic that I did not send the guns with the conversions in them but with the c&b cylinder. I could however send it all in the same box.

December 3, 2010, 02:24 PM	#9
RavensRoost Junior Member Join Date: December 3, 2010 Posts: 1	From Ravens Roost and the Kirst Company, When we install a converter we do the work on the customers gun. When doing this we are acting as a gunsmith and as long as the customer owns the gun before we start work we can return the gun directly back to the customer. No transfer is needed and we can send it with the converter in the gun. Once the loading groove is cut the revolver is a firearm, it can still be used as a percussion gun, but it is a firearm The customer must comply with all state laws! For California the only advice that counts is the DOJ's advice. Federal Law allows the individual and Licensed Gunsmiths and Manufacturers to Make a firearm. Also there is a 50 gun exemption to the excise tax. You can make 50 firearms without paying the tax if you make 51 you will owe the tax on all 51. You can resell your converted firearm!! As with any firearm sale you must comply with State and Federal Law. Anyone who tells you that you cannot resell your conversion refer them to the BATF, as they DO NOT know what they are talking about. The reason that we ask customers to send the percusion revolver with the percusion cylinder and not the converter in it is the percussion revolver is not considered a firearm so you do not need to declare it as such which makes it easier to deal with the clerks at the UPS store or FedX. Jay Strite Kirst Company