Gun powder residue from blowback??

covered n ink · August 19, 2012, 06:53 PM

I noticed when i was shooting the other day that my cases are getting alot of black residue on them after i unload the cylinder.. i am shooting out of a s&W 686p .357 mag revolver.. i noticed that there is hardly any residue with a stock round but with my reloaded rounds its turning the cases black.. i am using H110 reduced 3% from min load with a medium crimp and the bullet is not jumping so i see no need to crimp more.. is this blowback normal with mag load??? of 20 grains

splatman · August 19, 2012, 08:51 PM

Why are you shooting 3% below minimum? Some powders burn real dirty and some burn clean. When I load mid range (338 Lapua) using Retumbo the necks are very dirty. When I use 4831 under same pressure the necks come out clean.

primerman · August 19, 2012, 08:56 PM

I have found that shooting light loads are sometimes a little dirtier and when I increase my loads by a couple of of grain I get less residue. For example, when I load 4.0 grain of HP-38 for my 38 special load my cylinder and barrel are dirtier than when I load the same powder at 4.4 grains.

Just a thought;

Mike

Later;

I said I increase a couple of grain but I meant to say a couple of tenths of a grain. That being .02 or .o4 not ?.0.

Later,latter;

Those darn decimals never go where I want them to, Tenths should be .2 or .4, I guess all those years in the 6th grade are not paying off.

mehavey · August 19, 2012, 09:34 PM

1. Do not (repeat, Not) reduce H110 and/or W296* below min load. It is a powder that
must have the req'd higher pressure to burn properly. In fact I would normally suggest starting
approximately 1/3 of the way up between min and max.

2. Crimp medium heavy. (~1/2 turn of the die past first case contact)**. H110/W296 needs that
resistance/pressure buildup to even start burning properly.

3. Use a small pistol Mag primer. H110/W295 also needs that to start ignition consistently.

4. For all the reasons above, H110 is a powder for "heavier" bullets. What weight are you shooting?

Finally... Welcome to the Black Magic Society.

* H110 and W296 are the same ball powder sold under a different brand label.

** Make sure you are crimping into a crimp groove or you will buckle the case. I suggest crimping in
a separate last step after seating w/o crimp

mehavey · August 20, 2012, 08:31 AM

postscript:

If you are going to run lower-than-max loads in the 357 but still want low-to-high end "flex,"
I strongly recommend Vihtavuori-N110.

Notwithstanding the same "110" designator, it is not a ball powder, does not need Mag primers,
and will perform most excellently with a variety of case-volume load-outs.

http://www.lapua.com/en/products/rel.../relodata/6/27

wogpotter · August 20, 2012, 10:54 AM

3% below minimum from who'se manual & for what bullet weight?
I've seen varying load data for this powder wherre one manual's maximum is lower than another's minimum with all other components the same.

In two of my manuals 20 grains is approaching maximum, & in two others its just a minimum.

elkslayer4x5 · August 20, 2012, 11:48 AM

In reference to post#4, mehavey tells us.."Do not (repeat, Not) reduce H110 and/or W296* below min load. It is a powder that
must have the req'd higher pressure to burn properly. In fact I would normally suggest starting
approximately 1/3 of the way up between min and max"

Kinda difficult to determine just what the minimun start load is for .357 Mag 180 gr bullet using H110 for me, I've got four loading manuals, oldest to newest they are; ( case trimed to 1.180 )
1987 Speer #11 says..12.8 gr--14.2
1993 Hodgdon # 26 says..13 gr--13.5
2002 Nosler #5 says..12.5 gr--13.5
2008 Lyman #49 says.. 13.9--14.5
I went with the Nosler, trimed my Starline brass to 1.180, primed with CCI Magnum Small Pistol Primers No. 550, charged them with 12.6 grs of H110, and seated the Hornady XTP 180 gr bullets to 1.585 OAL, crimped in the top cannelure. Don't have a chronograph, so I have no idea of velocity and the 4 manuals are all over the place, but the cases come out of the revolver clean.
Mild recoil, and no signs of excess pressures. Want to step it up to the 14 gr range.

mehavey · August 20, 2012, 12:39 PM

When in doubt, go to the powder manufacturer.

Since a `93 Hodgdon Manual is two decades old (at least data-wise), we go to the Hodgdon website for today's data:
http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

180 GR. NOS PART
Hodgdon H110 .357"
OAL 1.575"
Min: 13.0gr 1,352fps 36,800 CUP
Max: 13.5gr 1,396fps 39,100 CUP
(Note that this is tested in a 10" barrel--probably a universal receiver--and therefore expected revolver velocity will be slower)
(Note also that the data hasn't changed much since `93)

Also double-checked their Winchester W296 listing and it's identical (`love it when a plan works out.)

So were I to be loading blind (i.e., w/o QuickLoad and w/o a chronograph), I'd go with the above data and probably start at H110/13.1gr

postscript: If the shooter really knows what he's doing (i.e., has the analytical tools above); knows the fickle history of the 357 pressure standards; and has referred to page 158 & 159 of the SAAMI specs to see the dramatic differences between psi & CUP standards even back in 1993...
http://www.saami.org/specifications_...ex.cfm?page=CC
AND is shooting a solid large-frame Super Blackhawk (and not a Smith & Wesson.... then have at it.)

covered n ink · August 20, 2012, 09:26 PM

i am sorry type o i meant reduced 3% from MAX which puts me at the min load its from Hodgon 2012 manual and lees manual i cross reference data first.. i am only running a 125g bullet with SPM primers and a medium crimp... i am new to this so any info is helpful...

fishbones182 · August 20, 2012, 09:46 PM

Lee's manual data is on the light side. for example for a 240 grain lwc in 44 mag it states to use 6.2 grains and stop at 7 grains of unique. Now my Lyman 48th eddition says to start at 10 and stop at 11.2. Thats a big difference. I can say most commericial bullets i buy are lead and have a bhn of around 18 so they need a hotter charge to get them to form to the barrel and reduce leading. Maybe the lee book is using a pure lead bullet and a hard cast mix im not sure on that one. As far as the black on the cases it could be that your charges are not enough pressure to expand the case or just a dirty burning powder.

mehavey · August 21, 2012, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OP

"...125g bullet with SPM primers and a medium crimp...."

There's a large part of your problem. H110/W296 absolutely needs resistance to ignite/burn efficiently. If you are dead set on the 125gr weight, then you can try crimping more firmly (full half turn on the die) to see if that will help. Otherwise I suggest both the heavier bullet/heavy crimp combo for those powders.

Best option, however, is Viht-N110, 2400, and/or Power Pistol powders for that weight bullet.

wogpotter · August 21, 2012, 08:54 AM

I use H-110 with WSP-M primers for 125 Gr Hornady XTP bullets with no problems in my 6" DW 15-2. My suggestion is a firm crimp, even if the bullet is not creeping that's only one function of the crimp so a bit more may help increase the pull to the point where you get better ignition. I'm using 20.0 Gr for a measured 1375 FPS from that 6"BBL FYI, not some factory inflated read from some specialty 16"BBL fitted to a universal receiver.

To give you an idea this is a loaded round showing the crimp I use.

I do get some smudge, but no more than I get with factory loads.

covered n ink · August 21, 2012, 04:26 PM

alright sweet info guys thanks a ton i will try a firmer crimp first see if that makes a diff then if that doesnt work ill up the charge before i switch powder or bullet weight... i am leaning toward the crimp isnt building up enough pressure to allow the case to expand so its blowing back on me....

August 19, 2012, 08:56 PM	#3
primerman Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2011 Posts: 153	I have found that shooting light loads are sometimes a little dirtier and when I increase my loads by a couple of of grain I get less residue. For example, when I load 4.0 grain of HP-38 for my 38 special load my cylinder and barrel are dirtier than when I load the same powder at 4.4 grains. Just a thought; Mike Later; I said I increase a couple of grain but I meant to say a couple of tenths of a grain. That being .02 or .o4 not ?.0. Later,latter; Those darn decimals never go where I want them to, Tenths should be .2 or .4, I guess all those years in the 6th grade are not paying off. Last edited by primerman; August 20, 2012 at 10:34 AM.

August 20, 2012, 10:54 AM	#6
wogpotter Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2004 Posts: 4,811	3% below minimum from who'se manual & for what bullet weight? I've seen varying load data for this powder wherre one manual's maximum is lower than another's minimum with all other components the same. In two of my manuals 20 grains is approaching maximum, & in two others its just a minimum. __________________ Allan Quatermain: “Automatic rifles. Who in God's name has automatic rifles”? Elderly Hunter: “That's dashed unsporting. Probably Belgium.”

August 20, 2012, 11:48 AM	#7
elkslayer4x5 Member Join Date: June 30, 2006 Location: Lane County, Oregon Posts: 66	In reference to post#4, mehavey tells us.."Do not (repeat, Not) reduce H110 and/or W296* below min load. It is a powder that must have the req'd higher pressure to burn properly. In fact I would normally suggest starting approximately 1/3 of the way up between min and max" Kinda difficult to determine just what the minimun start load is for .357 Mag 180 gr bullet using H110 for me, I've got four loading manuals, oldest to newest they are; ( case trimed to 1.180 ) 1987 Speer #11 says..12.8 gr--14.2 1993 Hodgdon # 26 says..13 gr--13.5 2002 Nosler #5 says..12.5 gr--13.5 2008 Lyman #49 says.. 13.9--14.5 I went with the Nosler, trimed my Starline brass to 1.180, primed with CCI Magnum Small Pistol Primers No. 550, charged them with 12.6 grs of H110, and seated the Hornady XTP 180 gr bullets to 1.585 OAL, crimped in the top cannelure. Don't have a chronograph, so I have no idea of velocity and the 4 manuals are all over the place, but the cases come out of the revolver clean. Mild recoil, and no signs of excess pressures. Want to step it up to the 14 gr range. __________________ "Skin that one out, and I'll get ya another!

August 20, 2012, 12:39 PM	#8
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,896	When in doubt, go to the powder manufacturer. Since a `93 Hodgdon Manual is two decades old (at least data-wise), we go to the Hodgdon website for today's data: http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp 180 GR. NOS PART Hodgdon H110 .357" OAL 1.575" Min: 13.0gr 1,352fps 36,800 CUP Max: 13.5gr 1,396fps 39,100 CUP (Note that this is tested in a 10" barrel--probably a universal receiver--and therefore expected revolver velocity will be slower) (Note also that the data hasn't changed much since `93) Also double-checked their Winchester W296 listing and it's identical (`love it when a plan works out.) So were I to be loading blind (i.e., w/o QuickLoad and w/o a chronograph), I'd go with the above data and probably start at H110/13.1gr postscript: If the shooter really knows what he's doing (i.e., has the analytical tools above); knows the fickle history of the 357 pressure standards; and has referred to page 158 & 159 of the SAAMI specs to see the dramatic differences between psi & CUP standards even back in 1993... http://www.saami.org/specifications_...ex.cfm?page=CC AND is shooting a solid large-frame Super Blackhawk (and not a Smith & Wesson.... then have at it.) Last edited by mehavey; August 20, 2012 at 01:06 PM.

August 21, 2012, 08:54 AM	#12
wogpotter Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2004 Posts: 4,811	I use H-110 with WSP-M primers for 125 Gr Hornady XTP bullets with no problems in my 6" DW 15-2. My suggestion is a firm crimp, even if the bullet is not creeping that's only one function of the crimp so a bit more may help increase the pull to the point where you get better ignition. I'm using 20.0 Gr for a measured 1375 FPS from that 6"BBL FYI, not some factory inflated read from some specialty 16"BBL fitted to a universal receiver. To give you an idea this is a loaded round showing the crimp I use. I do get some smudge, but no more than I get with factory loads. __________________ Allan Quatermain: “Automatic rifles. Who in God's name has automatic rifles”? Elderly Hunter: “That's dashed unsporting. Probably Belgium.” Last edited by wogpotter; August 21, 2012 at 12:52 PM.

August 19, 2012, 06:53 PM	#1
covered n ink Junior Member Join Date: June 7, 2012 Location: Pittsburgh PA Posts: 5	Gun powder residue from blowback?? I noticed when i was shooting the other day that my cases are getting alot of black residue on them after i unload the cylinder.. i am shooting out of a s&W 686p .357 mag revolver.. i noticed that there is hardly any residue with a stock round but with my reloaded rounds its turning the cases black.. i am using H110 reduced 3% from min load with a medium crimp and the bullet is not jumping so i see no need to crimp more.. is this blowback normal with mag load??? of 20 grains

August 19, 2012, 08:51 PM	#2
splatman Member Join Date: April 12, 2012 Posts: 94	Why are you shooting 3% below minimum? Some powders burn real dirty and some burn clean. When I load mid range (338 Lapua) using Retumbo the necks are very dirty. When I use 4831 under same pressure the necks come out clean.

August 19, 2012, 09:34 PM	#4
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,896	1. Do not (repeat, Not) reduce H110 and/or W296* below min load. It is a powder that must have the req'd higher pressure to burn properly. In fact I would normally suggest starting approximately 1/3 of the way up between min and max. 2. Crimp medium heavy. (~1/2 turn of the die past first case contact)*. H110/W296 needs that resistance/pressure buildup to even start burning properly. 3. Use a small pistol Mag primer. H110/W295 also needs that to start ignition consistently. 4. For all the reasons above, H110 is a powder for "heavier" bullets. What weight are you shooting? Finally... Welcome to the Black Magic Society. H110 and W296 are the same ball powder sold under a different brand label. ** Make sure you are crimping into a crimp groove or you will buckle the case. I suggest crimping in a separate last step after seating w/o crimp Last edited by mehavey; August 19, 2012 at 09:43 PM.

August 20, 2012, 08:31 AM	#5
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,896	postscript: If you are going to run lower-than-max loads in the 357 but still want low-to-high end "flex," I strongly recommend Vihtavuori-N110. Notwithstanding the same "110" designator, it is not a ball powder, does not need Mag primers, and will perform most excellently with a variety of case-volume load-outs. http://www.lapua.com/en/products/rel.../relodata/6/27

August 20, 2012, 09:26 PM	#9
covered n ink Junior Member Join Date: June 7, 2012 Location: Pittsburgh PA Posts: 5	i am sorry type o i meant reduced 3% from MAX which puts me at the min load its from Hodgon 2012 manual and lees manual i cross reference data first.. i am only running a 125g bullet with SPM primers and a medium crimp... i am new to this so any info is helpful...

August 20, 2012, 09:46 PM	#10
fishbones182 Member Join Date: August 1, 2012 Location: Florida Posts: 98	Lee's manual data is on the light side. for example for a 240 grain lwc in 44 mag it states to use 6.2 grains and stop at 7 grains of unique. Now my Lyman 48th eddition says to start at 10 and stop at 11.2. Thats a big difference. I can say most commericial bullets i buy are lead and have a bhn of around 18 so they need a hotter charge to get them to form to the barrel and reduce leading. Maybe the lee book is using a pure lead bullet and a hard cast mix im not sure on that one. As far as the black on the cases it could be that your charges are not enough pressure to expand the case or just a dirty burning powder.

August 21, 2012, 04:26 PM	#13
covered n ink Junior Member Join Date: June 7, 2012 Location: Pittsburgh PA Posts: 5	alright sweet info guys thanks a ton i will try a firmer crimp first see if that makes a diff then if that doesnt work ill up the charge before i switch powder or bullet weight... i am leaning toward the crimp isnt building up enough pressure to allow the case to expand so its blowing back on me....