38S&W / 38/200 reloading question

bpfh · December 28, 2009, 05:07 PM

Hi Everyone,

I have come across an old Webley Mk IV in 38/200 - which from my research is near-as-darn-it 38S&W with a lighter load - which I could handload... if I had any cases!

From my research, both of these cases (S&W & the British 38/200) are slightly tapered.

I was originally thinking about taking some of my .38 Special brass of which I have a smallish pile which has the same base size, trimming it down to the required length then throwing it into a .38 S&W sizing die to sort of "neck it down"... This is a sort of tame excursion into the realms of wildcatting, and I'd like some feedback before I break somthing

I have load data available so no troubles there, just I'm hesitating about the case resizing.

Cheers,
Daniel

jbrown13 · December 28, 2009, 09:40 PM

Grafs has some Starline 38 S&W brass in stock, which, IMHO, would be better than cutting down 38 Special brass. The diameters are different as far as I know. I recently bought some, and reloaded them for a 1932 vintage Smith, and they shot well. They can be purchased here: http://www.grafs.com/metallic/521

**Mike Irwin** · December 28, 2009, 10:56 PM

You don't neck the .38 Special down to make .380 brass.

The .380's case head is larger than .38 Spl., and it fires a slightly larger bullet.

You'll run into trouble in both areas.

Sarge · December 28, 2009, 11:37 PM

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=43073

Check Post #9

zxcvbob · December 28, 2009, 11:48 PM

You can cut off .38 Special brass to the right length and use it in .38S&W and it'll either work or it'll split on the first use. If it works, don't use .38 Special dies on it (that will work-harden the brass and it'll split next time for sure), use .38 S&W dies or 9mm or .38 Super or 9mm Mak or...

You can also order new Starline .38S&W brass and it'll come eventually. It's not all that expensive, just hard to find.

radom · December 29, 2009, 02:38 AM

In a pinch 9mm brass will work with light loads if you dont mind having to manualy push them out with a rod after you fire them. Cut down special brass will work if loaded with 9mm does as mentioned before. They just tend to split at times is all after a few reloads.

bpfh · December 29, 2009, 05:25 AM

@jbrown13 : Thanks for the link!

@Sarge : I saw that link before and it confirms my loading data I found elsewhere, though the mold reference is definitely a win!

@Mike Irwin : The reference data I found for the catridges was:

.38 Spl: Rim: .434 Base: .379 Neck .379
.38/200: Rim: .434 Base: .380 Neck .377
.38 S&W: Rim: .434 Base: .3865 Neck .361

The base is larger, but the neck is smaller compared to .38 spl. A carbide sizing die should reform the neck, but the base would float around a little in the cylinder, and the case would get fireformed...thus explaining the comments made my zxcvbob and radom regarding case splits.

Thank you all for your answers!

darkgael · December 29, 2009, 07:42 AM

some more stuff.
I'd forgotten about that thread ( I'm Pete D. over at the cast boolitt site).
I was wrong about the 38 S&W never having been loaded with BP. It was for a very short period. That load was never used in the Webleys.
The Brits used 3.7 grains of Cordite.
A bullet mold for a bullet that duplicates the weight and profile of the British 200 grain bullet is made by NEI - #149A on page seven of their old catalog. http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog.html
It's a .362 PB 200 grainer. 2nd column from the right fifth bullet down.
I shoot them with 3.0 grains of Unique.
Pete

**Mike Irwin** · December 29, 2009, 09:55 AM

"I was wrong about the 38 S&W never having been loaded with BP. It was for a very short period."

Huh?

In the United States the .38 Smith & Wesson was loaded with black powder from its introduction in the 1870s. You could still get some black powder loadings from some companies as late as just prior to World War I.

Hundreds of millions of rounds of .38 S&W was loaded with black powder.

darkgael · December 29, 2009, 02:22 PM

Duplicate post

darkgael · December 29, 2009, 02:43 PM

Thanks, Mike: I didn't know that. I had paid the most attention to the British handling of the round when they adopted it between the wars.
I was, erroneously it seems, under the impression that the little cartridge was changed over pretty quickly after the advent of smokeless powders. Perhaps I have mixed it up with the history of the .38 Special.
I can find info about the .38 Colt that was a BP loading adopted in 1889 by the Navy and its improved brother the 38 Long Colt (15.4 grains of BP) - and the millions of rounds loaded for them, but I run into a wall about the .38 S&W (Colt New Police). It makes sense, given its introduction in 1876, that it would have been loaded with BP but ...
I'd sure like to see a box of it to concretize the idea for me.
Even Barnes in CotW (far from the most complete reference) fails to supply a BP load, which they usually do.

Pete

**Mike Irwin** · December 29, 2009, 03:56 PM

Sure the .38 S&W changed over. But it wasn't a "black powder is totally out, smokeless is here to stay" kind of thing. Both were offered after smokless powder started to become available commercially.

Remember, this was a time of transition. Many people really didn't think smokeless powder was going to catch on. Others were afraid of it and wouldn't buy it. And, some of the really old guns simply weren't suitable for use with anything but black powder.

The .38 Special, introduced (depending on who you look to for the information) in 1899 or 1902, was originally offered commercially both with black powder and with smokeless.

Even more interestingly, the .44 Special, introduced in 1907, was also available up to about World War I in black powder loadings.

There remained a fairly significant, but ever dwindling, market for blackpowder loaded cartridges through the first 15 years of the 20th century. It likely would have lasted longer had not World War I, and all the contracts that flooded into American companies, intervened.

As for a box picture, I'm sure Google would be your friend...

darkgael · December 29, 2009, 05:16 PM

I've tried Google - and keep trying - no joy.
I've yet to try the Cartridge Collectors.
Maybe..
Pete

radom · December 30, 2009, 03:58 AM

Another train of thought is that BP loads cost less than the smokless loads back then also and times where tight for a lot too. My great grandfather always used a Enfeild .577 as a deer and elk gun up into the 1930s. A pound of FF and pound of lead would last for years hunting. His idea I guess was it always worked in the past and why change if it works, plus he was born in Scotland too.

darkgael · December 30, 2009, 06:04 AM

I did track down some info about the .38 S&W at the International Ammunition Association.
The responses to my query were:

Quote:

Pete,
Winchester started loading smokeless .38 S&W in 1894 according to WRA Co Headstamped Cartridges and Their Variations by Dan Shuey. I imagine the other ammunition makers introduced smokeless loads about the same time. For most makers, headstamps would not have changed, although Peters did use a special headstamp for some of their cartridges (.38 S&W included) with 'QS' added to indicate they were loaded with Quick Shot powder, which I believe was a semi-smokeless powder.

and

Quote:

Darkgael--U.M.C. lists the Smokeless .38 S&W in their 1895 catalog. I don't have the 1894 catalog, but I think it was introduced in 1894. The smokeless load can be told by a "U" on the primer. On Winchester loads it is a W in a circle for smokeless loads. Peters always loaded smokeless from the beginning.

Pete

Magnum Wheel Man · December 30, 2009, 09:25 AM

I've lately been buying some of these old break top pocket revolvers, in both 32 S&W & 38 S&W, & will be loading both of these cartridges this winter, with lead round balls ( 000 buck for the 38 S&W ) & expirimenting with light loads of Trailboss, just in cast the O.P. was interested

December 28, 2009, 09:40 PM	#2
jbrown13 Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2009 Location: Perry, GA Posts: 105	38 S&W Brass Grafs has some Starline 38 S&W brass in stock, which, IMHO, would be better than cutting down 38 Special brass. The diameters are different as far as I know. I recently bought some, and reloaded them for a 1932 vintage Smith, and they shot well. They can be purchased here: http://www.grafs.com/metallic/521

December 28, 2009, 10:56 PM	#3
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	You don't neck the .38 Special down to make .380 brass. The .380's case head is larger than .38 Spl., and it fires a slightly larger bullet. You'll run into trouble in both areas. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

December 28, 2009, 11:37 PM	#4
Sarge Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2002 Location: MO Posts: 5,457	http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=43073 Check Post #9 __________________ People were smarter before the Internet, or imbeciles were harder to notice.

December 28, 2009, 11:48 PM	#5
zxcvbob Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2007 Location: S.E. Minnesota Posts: 4,720	You can cut off .38 Special brass to the right length and use it in .38S&W and it'll either work or it'll split on the first use. If it works, don't use .38 Special dies on it (that will work-harden the brass and it'll split next time for sure), use .38 S&W dies or 9mm or .38 Super or 9mm Mak or... You can also order new Starline .38S&W brass and it'll come eventually. It's not all that expensive, just hard to find. __________________ "Everything they do is so dramatic and flamboyant. It just makes me want to set myself on fire!" —Lucille Bluth

December 29, 2009, 07:42 AM	#8
darkgael Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2006 Location: Homes in Brooklyn, NY and in Pennsylvania. Posts: 5,473	more info some more stuff. I'd forgotten about that thread ( I'm Pete D. over at the cast boolitt site). I was wrong about the 38 S&W never having been loaded with BP. It was for a very short period. That load was never used in the Webleys. The Brits used 3.7 grains of Cordite. A bullet mold for a bullet that duplicates the weight and profile of the British 200 grain bullet is made by NEI - #149A on page seven of their old catalog. http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog.html It's a .362 PB 200 grainer. 2nd column from the right fifth bullet down. I shoot them with 3.0 grains of Unique. Pete __________________ “Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games.” Ernest Hemingway ... NRA Life Member

December 28, 2009, 05:07 PM	#1
bpfh Junior Member Join Date: December 28, 2009 Posts: 2	38S&W / 38/200 reloading question Hi Everyone, I have come across an old Webley Mk IV in 38/200 - which from my research is near-as-darn-it 38S&W with a lighter load - which I could handload... if I had any cases! From my research, both of these cases (S&W & the British 38/200) are slightly tapered. I was originally thinking about taking some of my .38 Special brass of which I have a smallish pile which has the same base size, trimming it down to the required length then throwing it into a .38 S&W sizing die to sort of "neck it down"... This is a sort of tame excursion into the realms of wildcatting, and I'd like some feedback before I break somthing I have load data available so no troubles there, just I'm hesitating about the case resizing. Cheers, Daniel

December 29, 2009, 02:38 AM	#6
radom Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2000 Posts: 1,353	In a pinch 9mm brass will work with light loads if you dont mind having to manualy push them out with a rod after you fire them. Cut down special brass will work if loaded with 9mm does as mentioned before. They just tend to split at times is all after a few reloads.

December 29, 2009, 05:25 AM	#7
bpfh Junior Member Join Date: December 28, 2009 Posts: 2	@jbrown13 : Thanks for the link! @Sarge : I saw that link before and it confirms my loading data I found elsewhere, though the mold reference is definitely a win! @Mike Irwin : The reference data I found for the catridges was: .38 Spl: Rim: .434 Base: .379 Neck .379 .38/200: Rim: .434 Base: .380 Neck .377 .38 S&W: Rim: .434 Base: .3865 Neck .361 The base is larger, but the neck is smaller compared to .38 spl. A carbide sizing die should reform the neck, but the base would float around a little in the cylinder, and the case would get fireformed...thus explaining the comments made my zxcvbob and radom regarding case splits. Thank you all for your answers!

December 29, 2009, 09:55 AM	#9
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	"I was wrong about the 38 S&W never having been loaded with BP. It was for a very short period." Huh? In the United States the .38 Smith & Wesson was loaded with black powder from its introduction in the 1870s. You could still get some black powder loadings from some companies as late as just prior to World War I. Hundreds of millions of rounds of .38 S&W was loaded with black powder. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

December 29, 2009, 02:22 PM	#10
darkgael Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2006 Location: Homes in Brooklyn, NY and in Pennsylvania. Posts: 5,473	OK Duplicate post __________________ “Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games.” Ernest Hemingway ... NRA Life Member Last edited by darkgael; December 29, 2009 at 02:44 PM.

December 29, 2009, 02:43 PM	#11
darkgael Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2006 Location: Homes in Brooklyn, NY and in Pennsylvania. Posts: 5,473	BP Thanks, Mike: I didn't know that. I had paid the most attention to the British handling of the round when they adopted it between the wars. I was, erroneously it seems, under the impression that the little cartridge was changed over pretty quickly after the advent of smokeless powders. Perhaps I have mixed it up with the history of the .38 Special. I can find info about the .38 Colt that was a BP loading adopted in 1889 by the Navy and its improved brother the 38 Long Colt (15.4 grains of BP) - and the millions of rounds loaded for them, but I run into a wall about the .38 S&W (Colt New Police). It makes sense, given its introduction in 1876, that it would have been loaded with BP but ... I'd sure like to see a box of it to concretize the idea for me. Even Barnes in CotW (far from the most complete reference) fails to supply a BP load, which they usually do. Pete __________________ “Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games.” Ernest Hemingway ... NRA Life Member Last edited by darkgael; December 29, 2009 at 02:49 PM.

December 29, 2009, 03:56 PM	#12
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	Sure the .38 S&W changed over. But it wasn't a "black powder is totally out, smokeless is here to stay" kind of thing. Both were offered after smokless powder started to become available commercially. Remember, this was a time of transition. Many people really didn't think smokeless powder was going to catch on. Others were afraid of it and wouldn't buy it. And, some of the really old guns simply weren't suitable for use with anything but black powder. The .38 Special, introduced (depending on who you look to for the information) in 1899 or 1902, was originally offered commercially both with black powder and with smokeless. Even more interestingly, the .44 Special, introduced in 1907, was also available up to about World War I in black powder loadings. There remained a fairly significant, but ever dwindling, market for blackpowder loaded cartridges through the first 15 years of the 20th century. It likely would have lasted longer had not World War I, and all the contracts that flooded into American companies, intervened. As for a box picture, I'm sure Google would be your friend... __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

December 29, 2009, 05:16 PM	#13
darkgael Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2006 Location: Homes in Brooklyn, NY and in Pennsylvania. Posts: 5,473	not yet I've tried Google - and keep trying - no joy. I've yet to try the Cartridge Collectors. Maybe.. Pete __________________ “Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games.” Ernest Hemingway ... NRA Life Member

December 30, 2009, 03:58 AM	#14
radom Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2000 Posts: 1,353	Another train of thought is that BP loads cost less than the smokless loads back then also and times where tight for a lot too. My great grandfather always used a Enfeild .577 as a deer and elk gun up into the 1930s. A pound of FF and pound of lead would last for years hunting. His idea I guess was it always worked in the past and why change if it works, plus he was born in Scotland too.

December 30, 2009, 09:25 AM	#16
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	Interesting thread... I've lately been buying some of these old break top pocket revolvers, in both 32 S&W & 38 S&W, & will be loading both of these cartridges this winter, with lead round balls ( 000 buck for the 38 S&W ) & expirimenting with light loads of Trailboss, just in cast the O.P. was interested __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...