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Old May 10, 2014, 09:38 PM   #1
Reaper9108
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Reloading .223

So i recently decided to start reloading after the purchase of an AR-15 and i am still gathering up the things i need for my setup...Now my question i am seeing a lot of different digital scales out there with many different options just wondering what kind of tolerances i should be looking for i see a lot of them that measure +/- 1/10 and some that measure +/- 1/100 do i really need one that accurate or will a measuring to the tenth be fine for what i am doing (.223 rem, 7mm rem mag, 9mm, .380). The price differences are big and i don't really want to "go cheap" but i also don't want to pay for something i don't need
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Old May 10, 2014, 09:47 PM   #2
Brian Pfleuger
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You don't need any more than 0.10gr. An auto dispenser would be the best reloading money you ever spend, if it's in your budget.
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Old May 10, 2014, 09:57 PM   #3
Reaper9108
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The kit i bought came with a powder thrower i got a lee challenger kit it also came with a lee perfect powder measure the beam kind and i like it i just think that would be too slow for what i want to do then again i have yet to try powder in it i just don't know
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Old May 10, 2014, 10:29 PM   #4
steve4102
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Quote:
The kit i bought came with a powder thrower i got a lee challenger kit it also came with a lee perfect powder measure the beam kind and i like it i just think that would be too slow for what i want to do then again i have yet to try powder in it i just don't know
Did your kit come with a Manual? I would start there.
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Old May 11, 2014, 01:06 AM   #5
Jim243
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What you have is one of these:



They work better if you actually put powder into them.

This would be fine for what you want to load, you adjust the black bar/handle for setting the amount of powder you want to use. Out for more, in for less.

As to scales, all used for reloading measure in GRAINS. Almost all will be in XX.X grains that's to 1 ten of a grain. All your load data in the books will be the same units of measure.

Now, which scale to purchase, for a beginner I would say you need to get a balance beam type of scale. The cheap battery operated small electronic scales are not that great on accuracy or holding zero. The balance beam ones work well because gravity is always constant and if zeroed correctly (READ THE DIRECTIONS) will give you accurate readings. You could go with a scientific scale, but that will cost you thousands, if you really want accuracy to 5 decimal places 0.00000.

Good luck and spend between $50 to $100 on your scale.
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Old May 11, 2014, 08:38 AM   #6
rg1
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I've had a Pact Precision since it was 1st introduced I think in 1994. Still works perfectly. I wouldn't load without a digital. I would recommend a digital from Pact, RCBS, Dillon, or Lyman. I wouldn't recommend a micro scale but I have no experience with one. One-tenth grain accuracy is fine for reloading yet sometimes I've wished to buy a GemPro 250 or similar but can't justify the cost. Seems the ultimate is one of the self-dispensing scales and would be a top choice if you can swing the higher price. I still have my RCBS balance beam scale as a back-up just in case but it hasn't been out of the drawer since 1994.
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Old May 11, 2014, 08:45 AM   #7
Bart B.
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A powder measure that dumps charge weights of the correct stick powder with a 2/10ths grain spread will get sub half MOA groups through 300 yards if the right components are used, assembled the right way and shot in a good rifle. Exact charge weights are not on my "must do" list for good reliability and accuracy of reloaded ammo for use at less than 500 yards.

A good, low cost beam scale is good enough to set the powder measure to throw powder charges.

Last edited by Bart B.; May 11, 2014 at 02:23 PM.
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Old May 11, 2014, 02:59 PM   #8
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Another way to look at it is that for non-temperature-compensated powders in .223 Rem, 0.01 grains of charge error is about the same error you will get if the temperature changes about ¾ of 1 degree, depending on the powder. Unless you are always shooting one round from a cold barrel, as a law enforcement sniper usually is, your rounds are going to heat a lot more than that in your chamber.

I have one lab scale, and have found the extra resolution useful for studying variances of things, moisture uptake, and other odd studies, but it is not valuable for loading a batch of rounds. There, the standard scale is plenty adequate. You really don't want a load that is sensitive to temperatures or small charge errors in the first place, as it is likely to turn on you in the field or in a match. Check out Dan Newberry's approach to a systematic way of finding charge-insensitive loads. When you get more experience, you'll devise some ways of working of your own to help find them.

That said, if you are going to invest in a higher resolution scale anyway, there are two ways to go: One is to get one of the cheap (under 30 dollars) scales on Amazon that have 0.001 gram resolution and that have had good reviews (there are some). The other way is to get a serious lab scale in the near $1000 range. The reason for that price jump is near $1000 is about the bottom of the range for getting a scale with auto-calibration and built-in Faraday shielding, both of which are useful to have with that kind of sensitivity.
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Old May 11, 2014, 09:35 PM   #9
nemesiss45
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I have a digital scale, a beam scale, and powder measure. I only use the digital for my bolt gun to get really close charge weights. For my AR15, I only use my powder measure. I set it, weight 10 charges on the beam scale to be sure it is throwing consistant charges, then I measure every 10th charge to be sure it is staying put. It is not worth the time to weigh each charge in an AR15 unless you have custom match gun.

Also, what ive heard about digital reloading scales is that they measure in grams and convert to grains. The .1 grains is about .0065 grams. The reloading scales are accurate to .01 gram so they are not quite .01 grain accurate, and conversion is not exact, so you end up with about +/- .15 grains, for a spread of .3 grains.... I do not have the expertise to back that claim up, but I have always been wary of "reloading" scales since I read it. I have .001g scale, which translated to about .015 grain accuracy, but I only count on it to about .05 grains. (And I double check it on the beam)
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Old May 12, 2014, 05:39 AM   #10
Bart B.
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To those who believe powder charge weights must have sub tenth grain spreads, consider what Sierra Bullets has done since the early 1950's. They meter all charges into cases used to test their stuff for accuracy. A 2/10ths to 3/10ths grain spread is normal for charge weights. Their best match bullets from 22 to 33 caliber shoot 10-shot groups in their 200-yard indoor range under 1/2 inch; that's sub 1/4th MOA. Time after time after time. Same as benchresters metering powder charges in the 20 some odd grain range for 22 and 24 caliber cartridges shooting bug-hole groups at short range. A 2/10ths grain spread in charge weight will produce 1/2 MOA accuracy at 600 yards in well built rifles.

More interesting to me is they don't work up a new test load for each lot of bullets they make. Nor for each lot of powder, cases and primers as well as each new test barrel used to shoot them. They full length size all their fired cases in Redding full bushing dies for cartridges they're made for, standard full length sizing dies for the others. Sierra Bullets does no case prep whatsoever nor sorting by weight.

In a conversation with a ballistics engineer at Lake City Army Ammo Plant some years ago about an issue a military team had with a particular lot of 7.62 NATO M118 match ammo, he mentioned something I've never forgot. He said there's about a 2 grain spread in charge weights for both their .30-06 and 7.62 match ammo that shoots equally accurate for all practical purposes. They shoot between 200 and 300 shots per test group to get statistical confidence at 99% plus for each load. Charge weights are adjusted in that accuracy range for muzzle velocity specs so the rifles shooting it will have virtually the same sight settings for zeros at ranges from 200 through 1000 yards.

It doesn't matter if your scale is 1/10th grain off from what an expensive lab scale will weigh a given powder charge. As long as it's repeatable, that's all that matters. Three bullets of different calibers at 20, 40 and 60 grains are good enough to check your scales for repeatability. Doesn't matter if each one's a tenth or two off from exact. It's only important that the 39.8-grain 22 caliber varmint bullet you have weighs that same amount each time you put it on your zeroed scale. Get rediculous and use threaded steel nuts of whatever weight in the range of charges you use for a given cartridge. Repeatability is the issue; not exact weights.

Last edited by Bart B.; May 12, 2014 at 05:45 AM.
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Old May 12, 2014, 11:11 AM   #11
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I had one load of Brigadier 3023 that would span almost 3 grains with the original Sierra 155 grain Palma bullet without changing POI or group size in my M1A. But I also had an IMR4895 load with the 168 grain SMK in that same gun that shot .7 moa at the correct dosage, but which would grow to about 1.2 moa with half a grain difference either side of nominal. You really don't want the sensitive loads like that last one, even if they drive tacks, because a change in temperature will throw them off, even if you go to the trouble to keep the charge weight tight. You really want find a load your shooting system likes that has the wide charge weight tolerance, whether by Newberry's method or some other.

I've found the longer grain powders that don't meter as well as some others to be more likely to produce wide charge tolerance loads. I avoid the SC and SSC powders when I can, for that reason. I think the grain shortening is a gimmick that caters to people who are nervous about throwing exact charge weights, so they give them a powder that actually needs a tighter charge weight. A solution in search of a problem if there ever was one.

I've speculated before about why the long grains seem to have better immunity to weight fluctuation, but don't have solid proof of any specific mechanism. I can tell you it's not new. Hatcher reported having the same experience comparing IMR1185 and IMR1186 in National Match load development in the 1920's. Both had burn rates about like IMR4320, and IMR1185 had the same grain dimensions as IMR4064 did (until recently), while 1186 was closer to IMR4895 in grain size. The arsenal loading gear could dispense the 1185 within a 1.7 grain span, but it held the shorter 1186 grains to a 0.6 grain span. Nonetheless, the wide span 1185 loads were consistently more accurate, became the selected powder for the year he was doing the comparing, and several records were set with the resulting ammunition.

IMR4064 has done especially well for me in this regard in the past, but now that the process has been changed and the grains are shorter, I don't know if it will still be true. It's something I'd like to test this year.


Nemesiss45,

No, it's not universally true. You can get either native grain or native gram scales. The way to tell is that native gram scales with 0.01 gram internal precision will skip some digits in the last decimal place when converting to grains, due to rounding. Since a hundredth of a gram is 0.15432363 grains, the tenth grain digits will only change an average of almost 6.48 times per decade. You get skipped digits:

0.0 grains
0.2 grains
0.3 grains
0.5 grains
0.6 grains
0.8 grains
0.9 grains
1.1 grains
1.2 grains
1.4 grains
1.5 grains
1.7 grains
1.9 grains
etc.

If your scale doesn't skip any digits, then it is either a native grain scale, or. like many scientific scales, it actually reads ten times higher resolution internally, then averages ten readings and rounds the average up for the display. That clears away 90% of the rounding error.
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Old May 12, 2014, 05:57 PM   #12
captneil19
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reloading

I reload everything, I have , an I started out like u, an wonderful wife always trys to make my life better because im a disabled vet an cant do too much but shoot an reload lol lol, she found a used lyman electronic in mint condition online for $100.00, an I tell u it never misses once u set it as soon as u reset the tray it starts dumping powder, so I would look on line if your going to do a lot of reloading, that's the way to go, check it out start in e bay they have tons of reloading stuff who knows good luck

Last edited by captneil19; May 12, 2014 at 05:59 PM. Reason: re word
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Old May 12, 2014, 06:01 PM   #13
captneil19
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reloading

Im reloading everything I have an I started out like u an an wonderful wife always trys to make my life better because im a disabled vet an cant do too much but shoot an reload lol lol she found a used lyman electronic in mint condition online for $100.00 an I tell u it never misses once u set it as soon as u reset the tray it starts dumping powder so I would look on line if your going to do a lot of reloading that's the way to go check it out start in e bay they have tons of reloading stuff who knows good luck
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Old May 15, 2014, 07:21 AM   #14
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There's a lot here. For an AR15 at reasonable distances, <600 yards, the 1/10th of a grain accuracy is just fine. Someone here suggested an automatic digital powder dispenser. If you can afford one, you can stop there if you wish.

I do not remember the brand or model of the scale I have, but with this really slick little 2 speed powder trickler from Sinclair, and resolution to the 100th of a grain, I can measure individual kernels of powder (RL 15 and RL 17), and that is how I load my F class rifle. Not that I load to say, 2 100ths of a grain, but I load to *exactly* the tenth of a grain. I haven't noticed any differences in accuracy, but there is a certain pleasure I get from the exercise, and it is still a novel method (to me). It may well become a PITA, in which event I'll stop using that setup.

Good luck with your AR15. Guys who have them really like them.
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Old May 15, 2014, 07:57 AM   #15
Bart B.
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Do you sort bullets and cases to sub tenth grain weight spreads too?

Some folks sort primers to that tolerance.
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Old May 15, 2014, 09:54 AM   #16
stubbicatt
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No Bart B. I do however use two comparators to sort my bullets according to length of bearing surface. I have weighed bullets in the past, but a man has to draw the line somewhere! LOL.

Still having fun with this hobby after all these years...
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Old May 15, 2014, 12:28 PM   #17
Bart B.
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What diameter reference on the bullets do you use for determining bearing surface:

Barrel's groove diameter?

Barrel's bore diameter?

Bullet's maximum diameter?
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Old May 17, 2014, 01:43 PM   #18
MJFlores
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I think I'm the odd one here...I use a Redding Bench Rest measure with H322 powder (my .223 / AR 5.56 powder of choice). I still throw with the measure (which is very accurate), then weigh on a beam scale, and trickle to the exact amount. I have fun the whole time. My advice is, don't try to rush...take your time and make your ammo better than anything you could ever buy. Thats when it's really rewarding.
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