Belgian 1860 Army Colt

[enyaw]

What do you Hombres think a Belgian made Centaure Centennial 1960 New Model Army(copy of the 1860 Colt Army revolver) is worth....... with the action tuned as well as can be done....not real ragged out in the finish dept......main spring ground with a snappy taper to it (flat ground and not hour glass shape ground.....arbor properly bottomed in the barrels hole when the wedge tightens it up.....shoots a lil high and is as accurate as one can be........made dry fire safe so the hammer stays nice........solid lock into battery......alignment of the chambers to the bore right on......new milled tool steel wedge fitted well with the surfaces all bearing flush(no light can be seen between the surfaces of the wedge/barrel slots/arbor slots......made of steel harder than the average Italian guns......made to lock into battery when the hammer stops dead solid against the backstrap(no over travel to the hammer)....... chambers reamed with a chucking reamer to .002-.003 in.over the barrels groove diameter.......breech end of barrel reamed with a piloted reamer to be perfectly perpendicular to the centerline of the bore with an 11 degree forcing cone reamed with a piloted reamer concentric to the bore......muzzle end of the barrel face reamed with piloted reamer perpendicular to the bore and piloted reamer done crown concentric with the bore......hard Belgian cones/nipples in real good shape......fit of the parts even and flush as they should be........showing some use to the finish but has been well maintained with no rust/pits in chambers or barrel.....shoots standard size lead balls.......looks to have the real cyanid casehardening that actually hardens......hard to find anything to critisize or complain about with the gun.
I'm just wondering what something like this gun would be worth to someone. I know anything is only worth what someone is willing to pay fer it.
I have several of these Belgian Colts. Out of the eight I have I've worked about four of them to one degree or another.
Just wondering about this in case,down the road, I ever decide to sell.
You can't hurt my feelings or insult me with any opinions bout this. I'm too old to get riled up over lil things.

[maillemaker]

This guy is truly in the spirit of the 19th century - his post reads like a telegram!



Steve

[Erich]

(That's funny, maillemaker.)

Hi Wayne,

Looking at your question, I guess the issue you'd run into is that there are so many inexpensive and brand new Pietta guns floating around now for so cheap. The Belgian gun you describe sure sounds as if it should command a solid premium over those, but I'm not sure the market would actually bear that out.

Just a WAG here for the sake of discussion: since it sort of sounds premium and vaguely "blueprinted," I don't thing you'd be wrong in asking $400-$450 for it. And I'd make the argument that the thing has to be worth the same as a used ROA (which stun me at the prices they bring), given the quality of the base gun and the clean-up 'smithing that's been done to it.

And I think you'd get that, but it might take a while for the right person to see it. If you're looking for a fast sale, price it at $20 over what Cabela's has their new Piettas priced at.

Thanks for describing an interesting gun. I'm sure many of us would enjoy seeing detailed photos should you have that capability.

cheers, erich

[Beagle333]

$400 to $450 sounds right.

Speaking of Cabelas.... they had (as of Wednesday when I last looked...) their 1860 Piettas on sale for $199 with free shipping.

[Bootsie]

The going rate for a well maintained/tuned Centaure aka Centennial Army of the more common variants like 1st or 3rd variation Regular New Model Army these days should be in the range of a regular production 2nd gen Colt 1860.
Assuming top condition one of the rarer variants like Civilians or Cavalries would justify a premium of $ 100,00 to 300,00 over that amount.
If she is one of the very rare Pocket Armies you are asking 4 digits easily.
Bootsie

[Doc Hoy]

Okay...I'll stretch.

I'll get a check for a hundred bucks in the mail. Just send the pistol to me.

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.......;o)

[pohill]

Unless he's lost his touch due to old age, the fact that this gun was worked on by Enyaw makes it worth considerably more.

[Doc Hoy]

Got serial number 952 rehabbed by Wayner and I am happy.

[Captchee]

the centaure are starting to get rather colectable . if its in good shape i have seen them hit the 700.00 mark .
i would also tell you that the reciever at lest on the one i engraved , was harder then both my Pietta or my 1851 Uberti . over all i also think it was a much nicer piece then eather as well .

[pohill]

Captchee, you engraved that revolver? Nice work.

[Captchee]

yes i did it for a customer earlier this year
here is another photo of it



here are some photos of the reciever and back strap just after the relief work and back ground beading but prior to shading

[maillemaker]

That is amazing. How much does work like that cost?

I want to learn how to do it.

Steve

[Captchee]

how much it costs depends on how much coverage, type of engraving , the design used ......
i charged 2500.00 for that work .
that included a one off design "my own not a copy and an agreement that i will not use the design on any other piece " all the back ground is relief work , then beaded , then shaded .
full coverage of the reciever , barrel engraving , muzzle , hammer , trigger guard , back strap, full coverage of the Cylinder and engraving of the loading leaver

[Erich]

Man, that's just amazing.

[pohill]

How about a thread on engraved guns? I've seen some that are way overdone, but Captchee's look really good.

[Captchee]

thank you for the kind words fellas .
my point wasn’t to get off track here but to show that in the process of doing the above piece but to re-enforce my opinion that the centaure seem to have better steel then the Uberti or Pietta.
But then this was an earlier product piece so I cant say about the later ones .
The other thing I notice was that it was very smooth to operate . Im not sure what work the owner did on it prior .

[enyaw]

Thanks for the opinions on this topic Hombres.
Thanks for reinforcing the fact the steel is hard Captchee, and thanks for the pictures of your work. Masterfull craftmanship and art. Engravers amaze me with that kinda work/art/craftsmanship. The price paid is well worth the product. Worth more actually.
Thanks fer the compliment ole Bud Pohill. I don't thunk I've lost the touch due to old age Pohill. I'm only....uh.....uh....well not real old yet. My birthday was....uh....uh....Oh fergit it.
I feel I've evolved over the years. I never thunk I know it all because once I even think maybe......something crops up it's ugly head and seems to say.....OK Hot shot! figger this one out.
I guess the supply and demand fer a Centaure is related to how economical pistols are that are comparable........ like the functionable Piettas and the Uberti's too or even what the going price is for the used guns on the auctions.
I guess a major factor is......how desperate or bad someone needs a few bucks and has something to sell and will give a good deal to someone that is just on the edge of the same predicament. Someone that can scavage some coin from somewhere like the kids piggy banks or the change the neighbors drop between the cushions of the couch.
I can't put up pics right now so I'd have to say I was describing a pistol that shows wear to the finish but not anything bad. Just wear that ain't too ugly.
My guns can have that kinda wear without bothering me if it isn't ugly and shoots and functions well.
I plan on evolving some more in the casehardening with the charcoal and all like the real thing. Coupling that with a nitre blue and ,if I can figger it out better, the charcoal bluing like Colt did back in the days of the percussion guns.....before the carbonia came out.
You know....take a tuned Colt and put a period type finish to it so it seems more like the real deal. Some people can appreciate that. Maybe pay a little fer it. Maybe accept something a little less perfect than The Turbull Restoration Hombres.
It's been several years ago now but ....I experimented a lil with charcoal bluing like I researched it was done backin the day. I came out with an ink black and a dark grey black finish to a coupla barrels and cylinders. They sat fer a coupla years mostly dry of oil and never rusted. Amazing.
I want more of the bluish mixed in the color and I thunk I can do it by controlling the heat better. Using a fire and hot coals like the Colts bluing people back in the day(they don't call it charcoal bluing fer nothing) makes fer more an art to the process.
There's two ways to do it. One is don't take the pieces out of the coals and the other is take them out periodically. Colt did the "take them out periodically". I figgered a way to use red coals and still control the heat limit...I thunk anywhoooo.
Funny....I get the "know it alls" ,whom I don't mind at all since they might teach me sumptin, tellme different things.
Like I must be gettin the swords tempering of the real old days mixed up with doing the Colt blue. I'veread alittle about the swords tempering. Swords were a nice blue color when they were tempered so they weren't brittle. That's a heat blue not a charcoal blue.
Charcoal blue is much more durable due to using one of two different incredients for either way to do it and get about the same result. The incredients lay a carbon coat to the steel or iron that resists rust and scratches and wear much more than the heat blue.The heat blue type finish Uberti uses that has no real durability.
Some gunsmiths I've talked to use a type of heat blue and call it charcoal blue.
Some get charcoal blue mixed up with carbonia blue or the modern rendition of it. Carbonia blue is much more a complicated process than charcoalblue.
Anywhooo.....I'm off track I think.
I did do one of my Centaures with a 2,000 grit poish by hand(took ferever) and nitre blued it. It's got a few lil specks on it but looks good to me. I figured out the specks were probably from not scooping all the foam off the top of the melted salts that gets there when the salts are first melted.
I can'tremember if I did the real casehardening to it.
I did do the casehardening to a Uberti Navy Colt I've had fer more than a coupla decades coupled with the nitre blue and it looks pretty good.
I did my favorite old Walker and it looks good. At first it didn't look too good when I first shot it after the casehardening.
I didn't temper it enough(probably due to too much carbon already in the arbor steel) and on the third shot or so the arbor snapped off at the slot. Had to replace it. It's alright now.
It holds more pressure at the shot due to the chambers being a lil bigger than the grooves in the barrel. I shoots like a laser beam when I do it right.
At first I tried shooting the casehardened guns without tempering. Mistake. I plan on removing the arbors from the guns in the future because they have too much carbon ,I thunk,to be casehardened.
Anyway.....wonder what a good actioned Centaure would be worth with the real casehardening and the real nitre blue to it?
I wonder if a lot of people know that the Belgian Centaures come from the factory with clunky over springed stiff actions?
Thanks for the replies to this thread Hombres.

[maillemaker]

I saw this on reddit today and thought of your engraving stuff:

http://imgur.com/a/WVdGl

Steve

[sltm1]

About Captchee's work, I'm the proud owner of the gun he showed pic's of and to be honest, the pic's don't do it justice!!!! And, yes, it's a shooter, (had to at least once), here's what she does at 25yds off hand.

[Captchee]

you need to bring her back over this spring Roland so we can make up the inlays for the grips

[North East Redneck]

That sure is some great work Captchee.

[Bone Charcoal]

Enyaw-

If you choose to part with any of those Belgian revolvers I would be interested in one.

A friend gave me a Centennial, well a long-term loan until his grandson maybe wants it. I also have an Uberti 1860. Don't know much about these repros but it did not take long to realize the Belgian pistol was by far superior to the Italian. that is probably why Beligium lost out commercially, US black powder guys will not pay for quality. Or are I being too cynical?

Anyway I do like the Belgian revolver. Oh, I suppose I should admit one problem with Italy is my own fault, not being all that smart about adjusting the wedge. Nevertheless that Eye-talian hand is softer than my own. Didn't realize one could make steel that soft.

Anyway Enyaw Sir, if you come up with a price or two I'd sure like to know.

Jim Kelly, Michigan

[45 Dragoon]

Enyaw,
What do you set your barrel / cylinder gaps to ?

Mike