April 29, 2024, 07:12 AM | #51 | ||||||||
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The DOI is not dead, the constitution did not cancel it out. Our rights still come from God, what the FF wrote is what justified the break from England, that mankind has that right. They then wrote a list of charges. In other words, without the right, the list, by itself, would not have given them justification to break away. They wrote that for a reason. To look at it from another side, if our current government, (this is not to suggest I think this is where the country is going, just call this a strawman example) institutes complete election fraud, packs the supreme court, abolishes the bill of rights, ETC, I believe the DOI gives we the people the right to abolish that government and to install a new one. Doesn't mean we will have the ability, will be successful, only that we the people have that right. But, if you say I am being too defensive and maybe we're never going to see this the same way, I'll leave the conversation, I really can not see a need for continuing it any further. Last edited by s3779m; April 29, 2024 at 07:40 AM. |
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April 29, 2024, 08:59 AM | #52 | |
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That's what we have here. Your conclusion is practical. |
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April 29, 2024, 09:03 AM | #53 | ||||||||
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We aren't governed by the Declaration of Independence, as our founding fathers instead wrote the Constitution to actually govern us. I learned this in third grade. Quote:
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Again for the fifth or sixth time, you took exception with my rebuttal of "I've never heard or read anything of the sort. I would be interested in knowing were you heard that." Again, you replied "Right here" citing not the Constitution, federal law or a court case but the Declaration of Independence. Quote:
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You can keep babbling about what influence or effect the Declaration has, but in fact it has zero. The founders knew that, because the Constitution WAS THE framework for governance. The DOI was WHY we declared our independence from governance by the King, the Constitution is how our founding fathers planned governance. Of note is that not one US Supreme Court case has ever been based on the Declaration of Independence. Not one. Not ever. You asked "lets hear what his thoughts are".......well that's them. georghwbush's assertion: "we the people are supposed to be the highest authority in all matters government" is based on a flawed premise. That premise being the DOI somehow invalidates the Constitution. It doesn't. You supported that assertion.
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May 3, 2024, 08:13 PM | #54 | |||||||
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The thing is, what the Constitution means and how it applies in not up to you.
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May 4, 2024, 08:35 AM | #55 |
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There is nothing that you wrote that I disagree with. And yes, the DOI is a statement of ideas, not laws. And it was those beliefs that founded this country. But we have not thrown those ideas away, or at least I do not believe we have. We still believe our rights come from God. The bill of rights is still written that way, the courts still rule that the BOR's is a restriction on government not the citizens. When the 13 colonies had articles of confederacy the FF set forth to abolish that form of government and install one that would govern better for a nation. They had that right. They put their ideas to the people to vote on, as was their right.
Again, in this situation, and we probably do not agree, if our government should declare "climate emergency" and take away our elections, if our government packs the courts or just does away with them in order to justify their moves, if our basic rights are taken away, if our states rights are abolished, in other words if our government chooses to no longer follow the constitution, we the people have the right to abolish that government and install a new one. Not only do we have the right, we have the obligation to do so for future generations, in that aspect, is why I answered the question that we the people have the final say on our government. Can I find proof that we have that right, that the right is nothing more than a belief that our founding father had, of course not, any more than I can prove to you that our rights come from God. The FF offered no proof other than their belief. Again, everything you wrote, I agree with. The hardest part I have with this discussion is where all the disagreement is coming from. If we have the belief that we the people do not have the final say in our government, what makes us different than China? Russia? If I can answer that question, their government does not believe the people have that right. Ours does, or should. I am guessing that belief is no where near as strong as it once was. And I am guessing that I am misreading many of the comments on this forum that suggest that we the people no longer have that right. I have never thought a sitting president would willingly ignore a SCOTUS order. And get away with it. What is our recourse if congress chooses to also ignore SCOTUS rulings? Nor have I ever had the suspicion that voter fraud could take away our right to vote. That is not the best path for us to be on. But again, I am just giving my viewpoints, I thought it was a simple answer to the question from many posts ago. It is impossible, imo, to prove a belief, you either agree or don't, nor can a belief be proven wrong, it is what it is. (hate that saying) I am not out to change anyone's opinion, the constitution is the law of the land, at least as long as our government follows it. |
May 4, 2024, 02:08 PM | #56 | |
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The thing is that this thread is about how to give someone a gift of a gun without getting into trouble. A useful answer needs to be based on what the law is, not on what you believe. This is not theoretical. I am explaining how things really work in real life in the legal system in the United States -- well over a million lawyers, on the order of 30,000 state court judges, and roughly 1,700 federal court judges. Probably thousands, if not tens of thousands, of legal matters are being decided every day by the courts, and those decision are affecting the lives and property of real people in the real world. And those legal matters are being decided using law, not your beliefs. Misinformation about how the law works and how courts actually decide matters tends to lead the vulnerable, the gullible, the uneducated, and the desperate to make bad decisions -- decisions that get themselves into trouble. The point of having a solid understanding law is to better be able to make choices that further one's interests while avoiding to the extent possible the snares and tripwires that life lays for us.
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"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
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May 4, 2024, 02:33 PM | #57 | |
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