Bullseye...Holy Smoke!

Dallaswest · October 5, 2004, 08:59 AM

I was at the range the otherday, playing with a new .45 I got. I also decided to bring along my S&W model 28 which is a .357 Mag. I have been reloading mostly 38 Spl for years with Winchester 231 powder and 158 Gr SWC. I had great results with this powder.
I recently made a 100 rounds of 38's using 2.9 grains of Alliants Bullseye, Federal small primer, 158 Gr SWC in Fed cases. I brought these to the range. I loaded 5 rounds up in the old S&W and after 5 (very suttle) pops, the poor guy next to me and myself, were squinting and coughing from all the smoke. I couldn't beleive it! Other people in the range were asking if I was using black powder! After 50 rounds or so, I couldn't take it anymore and put my (completely soot covered) S&W away. Another guy at the range said I was using WAY to much powder. When I looked up the data to reload, I took an average of 3 books I have and 2.9 grains was on the low side of the average.
I chose Bullseye because I heard it was a fast powder and pretty accurate...which it was. I am going to make a few with 2.0, 2.5... and see if its any different. Or, just not use it.

What is everyones favorite, clean and accurate powder/s?

Johnny Guest · October 5, 2004, 09:39 AM

First, I agree that 2.9 of BE is a rather usual load. As I recall, 2.7 and 148 gr. wadcutter bullets was a pretty standard target load for several decades. I'd not worry about your load being too heavy in a .38 revolver, far less in a magnum.

The old, faster burning Hercules (later Alliant) powders such as Bullseye and Unique DO tend to produce a bit more smoke and soot than the "more modern" powders such as W231 and WST.

You give bullet weight and profile but don't mention the origin. Are they "home cast," by you or someone else? Certain powders react with certain bullet lubricants to produce a lot of smoke. Back in my IPSC competition days, I cast a lot of .45 230 RN bullets from salvaged wheel weights. When I lubed them with the old Lyman Ideal formula and loaded them with a goodly charge of Unique, there was a BUNCH of smoke. Not too bad on an outdoor range, with some breeze, but really bothersome on an indoor range. A change in bullet lube might be the ticket . . . .

Also, the degree of case/bullet crimp makes a big difference in the efficiency of the load. Many loaders merely straighten out the case bell when seating, with the idea of prolonging case life. Depending on the exact powder/bullet combo, revolver chamber size, and probably a dozen other factors, this can produce too little resistance for development of proper pressure. If the bullet starts moving too soon, the powder burn space increases and the powder burn suffers, which in turn reduces pressures. A good, stout, crimp which allows a proper build-up in pressure gives far more complete combustion, and a lot less smoke.

An easy check: If your lead bullets have black lube, try some with brown or blue lube, or load some with jacketed bullets. At the same time, make sure you adjust our seating die to give a noticible crimp. Do a side-by-side comparison, some of this combination with your old loads.

Please let us know the results.

Best,
Johnny

Dallaswest · October 5, 2004, 10:03 AM

The bullets I am using are RCBS 158 Gr SWC with 2 blue bands of lube around it. I do put a pretty good crimp on the case. I have the the die adjusted just so it crimps, but does'nt crimp to much to shear some of the brass off. I have some Speer 148 Gr JHP's I will try. Could it still be the lube?

Quantrill · October 5, 2004, 03:21 PM

John has good thoughts and advice. I vote for the lube as the culprit. Quantrill

lee n. field · October 6, 2004, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Another guy at the range said I was using WAY to much powde

He's wrong. I use 3.7 grains of Bullseye behind a 158 grain lead SWC, which is a little into +P range.

Yes, Bullseye is smoky.

**Mal H** · October 6, 2004, 09:30 AM

Yep, another vote for the lube as the main culprit followed by a light load of Bullseye. I would boost the load at least .2 grain and give the rounds a good normal crimp.

JoeHatley · October 6, 2004, 09:49 AM

My standard .38 special load is 3.7 grains Bullseye and a 158 grain SWC cast bullet. Depending on what bullet lube is used, that load can go from very "smokey" to just a little "sooty". The bullet lube seems to be the difference.

Good Luck...

Joe

saands · October 12, 2004, 02:50 PM

I would suggest picking up a small box of plated bullets from Berry's (or Ranier, or Westcoast, or Precision). They are QUITE affordable and eliminate the issues (including lead exposure) inherent with lubed lead. You can't push them to really high velocities (1250-1300 fps is the limit for all but Precision's) but they are great for 45acp, 9x19, and .38 spec ...

Saands

the runt · October 29, 2004, 05:57 PM

my 38 load is 2.2 grains of bullseye under 158 semi wadcutter and it seems fine! I also shoot in an indoor club and if it smoked that bad, soo would my but out the door! Try this load, it is pleasent to shoot and a good papper puncher!

OfcrBill · November 12, 2004, 11:51 PM

Fellas, I been using both powders for a long time now for my pistol loads and I am happy with performance of both. My question is...is there a "cleaner" burning powder with the same or improved performance? Appreciate responses, Bill

saands · November 13, 2004, 12:10 PM

I've been very happy with the VihtaVuori pistol powders ... they are clean and low flash. The only down side is that NO ONE seems to sell them in the local stores. MidSouth Shooters Supply carries them, though, and as long as you order a couple of pounds and a few thousand primers in the same order, the HAZ-MAT charge isn't all that bad. In particular, I like the N340 and the N350.

Saands

ps ... the VV powders are extruded, though, and I was DELIGHTED to see that they make the LEE "Less Than Perfect" Powder measure function really well ... but they would probably give fits to Dillon measures as they seem to prefer ball powders ... I don't have a Dillon, but I recall reading that on their website.

Archie · November 13, 2004, 04:15 PM

Just plain 'Clays'.

I've used Bullseye for years for wadcutter and light target loads. In the past year I've changed to Clays; it burns a little faster then Bullseye, if anything. Slightly less Clays gives equivilent velocities and much less smoke and soot than Bullseye.

This is not for full charge ammo, you all understand.

IceMan_1 · November 16, 2004, 06:43 PM

Hi all , yep I hafta agree with Archie I too switched to Clays from Bullseye for the same reason bullseye was to dirty out of my 1911 45acp using the same bullet's for both.I also tried some copper plated bullets from National Bullet Co. 200gr swc, these worked great , very accurate , will prolly try some ranier's also . http://www.nationalbullet.com.

drinks · November 16, 2004, 09:54 PM

Dallaswest;
Have you tried Liquid Alox in the tumble lube mode?
I have been using it and have good results in black powder and smokeless powder loads both. No smoke problems and no leading even at 2300fps rifle loads.
Don

rv_camper · November 17, 2004, 10:43 AM

Another vote for the Clays. Just about everyone grew up using Bullseye and some folks still do for bullseye shooting, but many of those shooters, Myself included have switched to Clays.

I find the powder burns much cleaner, and is just as consistant in the Chrongraph than Bulleye. I use it for both my indoor and outdoor leagues.

rustylp · November 29, 2004, 08:08 PM

when I was reloading rounds for my 243 i took the cowboys head off one orange clay rocks and the bullet was so fast it left a hole where that cowboys head was it didnt break the clay into peaces

Dropzone · December 3, 2004, 11:30 AM

Right now I'm using Bullseye powder, too. Yes it is a bit smokey, but I'll finish up with what I have before switching. Thing I like about it is that 5.0 grains for my 230gr FMJ pushes it @ around 900fps

caz223 · December 9, 2004, 09:28 AM

I can't use bullseye in .45 because it likes pressure, and without enough pressure, it's sooty and leaves black residue.
Not only that, but because it doesn't produce enough pressure, it doesn't have a good gas seal, which makes it sootier, dirtier, and less accurate yet.
Any powder that makes unique look clean burning by comparison is not going to be in my powder safe anytime soon...

Watchman · December 9, 2004, 07:11 PM

I quit using Bullesye years ago and went to Accurate Arms No.5.

Much cleaner burning and just as versatile. Not much smoke at all.

gunsmith1 · December 10, 2004, 05:00 PM

Bullseye is a bit smoky but try shooting a few bullets with only one lube groove filled and see what happens. Some lubes make a lot of smoke. My best guess is the lube.

Lycanthrope · December 10, 2004, 07:47 PM

Bullseye is just plain smokey. Use either Clays (just plain Clays not Universal Clays) or Titegroup.

Erich · December 11, 2004, 09:24 AM

I actually like the smoke from Bullseye. Makes me feel all nostalgic for when I was shooting .38s out of my first handgun.

It does dirty them up, though.

October 5, 2004, 08:59 AM	#1
Dallaswest Junior Member Join Date: October 4, 2004 Location: West Chicago, IL Posts: 3	Bullseye...Holy Smoke! I was at the range the otherday, playing with a new .45 I got. I also decided to bring along my S&W model 28 which is a .357 Mag. I have been reloading mostly 38 Spl for years with Winchester 231 powder and 158 Gr SWC. I had great results with this powder. I recently made a 100 rounds of 38's using 2.9 grains of Alliants Bullseye, Federal small primer, 158 Gr SWC in Fed cases. I brought these to the range. I loaded 5 rounds up in the old S&W and after 5 (very suttle) pops, the poor guy next to me and myself, were squinting and coughing from all the smoke. I couldn't beleive it! Other people in the range were asking if I was using black powder! After 50 rounds or so, I couldn't take it anymore and put my (completely soot covered) S&W away. Another guy at the range said I was using WAY to much powder. When I looked up the data to reload, I took an average of 3 books I have and 2.9 grains was on the low side of the average. I chose Bullseye because I heard it was a fast powder and pretty accurate...which it was. I am going to make a few with 2.0, 2.5... and see if its any different. Or, just not use it. What is everyones favorite, clean and accurate powder/s?

October 5, 2004, 09:39 AM	#2
Johnny Guest Moderator in Memoriam Join Date: August 28, 1999 Location: North Texas Posts: 4,123	A couple of thoughts on the topic - - First, I agree that 2.9 of BE is a rather usual load. As I recall, 2.7 and 148 gr. wadcutter bullets was a pretty standard target load for several decades. I'd not worry about your load being too heavy in a .38 revolver, far less in a magnum. The old, faster burning Hercules (later Alliant) powders such as Bullseye and Unique DO tend to produce a bit more smoke and soot than the "more modern" powders such as W231 and WST. You give bullet weight and profile but don't mention the origin. Are they "home cast," by you or someone else? Certain powders react with certain bullet lubricants to produce a lot of smoke. Back in my IPSC competition days, I cast a lot of .45 230 RN bullets from salvaged wheel weights. When I lubed them with the old Lyman Ideal formula and loaded them with a goodly charge of Unique, there was a BUNCH of smoke. Not too bad on an outdoor range, with some breeze, but really bothersome on an indoor range. A change in bullet lube might be the ticket . . . . Also, the degree of case/bullet crimp makes a big difference in the efficiency of the load. Many loaders merely straighten out the case bell when seating, with the idea of prolonging case life. Depending on the exact powder/bullet combo, revolver chamber size, and probably a dozen other factors, this can produce too little resistance for development of proper pressure. If the bullet starts moving too soon, the powder burn space increases and the powder burn suffers, which in turn reduces pressures. A good, stout, crimp which allows a proper build-up in pressure gives far more complete combustion, and a lot less smoke. An easy check: If your lead bullets have black lube, try some with brown or blue lube, or load some with jacketed bullets. At the same time, make sure you adjust our seating die to give a noticible crimp. Do a side-by-side comparison, some of this combination with your old loads. Please let us know the results. Best, Johnny

October 6, 2004, 09:49 AM	#7
JoeHatley Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 1999 Location: Iowa Posts: 2,135	My standard .38 special load is 3.7 grains Bullseye and a 158 grain SWC cast bullet. Depending on what bullet lube is used, that load can go from very "smokey" to just a little "sooty". The bullet lube seems to be the difference. Good Luck... Joe __________________ Go NRA

November 12, 2004, 11:51 PM	#10
OfcrBill Member Join Date: November 12, 2004 Location: New Mexico Posts: 62	Bullseye & Unique Fellas, I been using both powders for a long time now for my pistol loads and I am happy with performance of both. My question is...is there a "cleaner" burning powder with the same or improved performance? Appreciate responses, Bill

November 13, 2004, 04:15 PM	#12
Archie Senior Member Join Date: May 26, 2000 Location: Hastings, Nebrasksa - the Hear Posts: 2,209	Clays. Just plain 'Clays'. I've used Bullseye for years for wadcutter and light target loads. In the past year I've changed to Clays; it burns a little faster then Bullseye, if anything. Slightly less Clays gives equivilent velocities and much less smoke and soot than Bullseye. This is not for full charge ammo, you all understand. __________________ There ain't no free lunch, except Jesus. Archie Check out updated journal at http://oldmanmontgomery.wordpress.com/

October 5, 2004, 10:03 AM	#3
Dallaswest Junior Member Join Date: October 4, 2004 Location: West Chicago, IL Posts: 3	The bullets I am using are RCBS 158 Gr SWC with 2 blue bands of lube around it. I do put a pretty good crimp on the case. I have the the die adjusted just so it crimps, but does'nt crimp to much to shear some of the brass off. I have some Speer 148 Gr JHP's I will try. Could it still be the lube?

October 5, 2004, 03:21 PM	#4
Quantrill Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 1999 Location: Arizona, USA Posts: 725	John has good thoughts and advice. I vote for the lube as the culprit. Quantrill

October 6, 2004, 09:30 AM	#6
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia Posts: 16,948	Yep, another vote for the lube as the main culprit followed by a light load of Bullseye. I would boost the load at least .2 grain and give the rounds a good normal crimp.

October 12, 2004, 02:50 PM	#8
saands Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 1999 Posts: 1,573	I would suggest picking up a small box of plated bullets from Berry's (or Ranier, or Westcoast, or Precision). They are QUITE affordable and eliminate the issues (including lead exposure) inherent with lubed lead. You can't push them to really high velocities (1250-1300 fps is the limit for all but Precision's) but they are great for 45acp, 9x19, and .38 spec ... Saands

October 29, 2004, 05:57 PM	#9
the runt Junior Member Join Date: October 22, 2004 Posts: 10	my 38 load is 2.2 grains of bullseye under 158 semi wadcutter and it seems fine! I also shoot in an indoor club and if it smoked that bad, soo would my but out the door! Try this load, it is pleasent to shoot and a good papper puncher!

November 13, 2004, 12:10 PM	#11
saands Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 1999 Posts: 1,573	I've been very happy with the VihtaVuori pistol powders ... they are clean and low flash. The only down side is that NO ONE seems to sell them in the local stores. MidSouth Shooters Supply carries them, though, and as long as you order a couple of pounds and a few thousand primers in the same order, the HAZ-MAT charge isn't all that bad. In particular, I like the N340 and the N350. Saands ps ... the VV powders are extruded, though, and I was DELIGHTED to see that they make the LEE "Less Than Perfect" Powder measure function really well ... but they would probably give fits to Dillon measures as they seem to prefer ball powders ... I don't have a Dillon, but I recall reading that on their website.

November 16, 2004, 06:43 PM	#13
IceMan_1 Junior Member Join Date: November 16, 2004 Posts: 6	Hi all , yep I hafta agree with Archie I too switched to Clays from Bullseye for the same reason bullseye was to dirty out of my 1911 45acp using the same bullet's for both.I also tried some copper plated bullets from National Bullet Co. 200gr swc, these worked great , very accurate , will prolly try some ranier's also . http://www.nationalbullet.com.

November 16, 2004, 09:54 PM	#14
drinks Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2004 Posts: 405	Smoke Dallaswest; Have you tried Liquid Alox in the tumble lube mode? I have been using it and have good results in black powder and smokeless powder loads both. No smoke problems and no leading even at 2300fps rifle loads. Don

November 17, 2004, 10:43 AM	#15
rv_camper Junior Member Join Date: November 11, 2004 Posts: 3	Clays Another vote for the Clays. Just about everyone grew up using Bullseye and some folks still do for bullseye shooting, but many of those shooters, Myself included have switched to Clays. I find the powder burns much cleaner, and is just as consistant in the Chrongraph than Bulleye. I use it for both my indoor and outdoor leagues.

November 29, 2004, 08:08 PM	#16
rustylp Member Join Date: October 5, 2004 Posts: 54	clay targets are fun when I was reloading rounds for my 243 i took the cowboys head off one orange clay rocks and the bullet was so fast it left a hole where that cowboys head was it didnt break the clay into peaces

December 3, 2004, 11:30 AM	#17
Dropzone Member Join Date: December 1, 2004 Location: Sanford, NC Posts: 42	Right now I'm using Bullseye powder, too. Yes it is a bit smokey, but I'll finish up with what I have before switching. Thing I like about it is that 5.0 grains for my 230gr FMJ pushes it @ around 900fps

December 9, 2004, 09:28 AM	#18
caz223 Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,429	I can't use bullseye in .45 because it likes pressure, and without enough pressure, it's sooty and leaves black residue. Not only that, but because it doesn't produce enough pressure, it doesn't have a good gas seal, which makes it sootier, dirtier, and less accurate yet. Any powder that makes unique look clean burning by comparison is not going to be in my powder safe anytime soon... __________________ I'm not just a gun. I'm YOUR gun. (Hold me.)

December 9, 2004, 07:11 PM	#19
Watchman Junior member Join Date: August 8, 2000 Location: ARKANSAS Posts: 484	I quit using Bullesye years ago and went to Accurate Arms No.5. Much cleaner burning and just as versatile. Not much smoke at all.

December 10, 2004, 05:00 PM	#20
gunsmith1 Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 2004 Location: Montana Posts: 121	Bullseye Bullseye is a bit smoky but try shooting a few bullets with only one lube groove filled and see what happens. Some lubes make a lot of smoke. My best guess is the lube.

December 10, 2004, 07:47 PM	#21
Lycanthrope Senior Member Join Date: October 1, 2001 Location: PA Posts: 1,752	Bullseye is just plain smokey. Use either Clays (just plain Clays not Universal Clays) or Titegroup.

December 11, 2004, 09:24 AM	#22
Erich Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 1999 Location: Albuquerque, NM, USA Posts: 2,543	Once again, I'm alone. I actually like the smoke from Bullseye. Makes me feel all nostalgic for when I was shooting .38s out of my first handgun. It does dirty them up, though.