Original S&W automatic

Hutch · July 19, 2001, 03:05 PM

I'm away from home and my Jinks book. Someone has shown me a small S&W auto from the early part of the 1900's. It appears to be about 85% condition, has a 4-digit serial number on the front strap. It reads "35 S&W Auto". What's this li'l feller actually chambered ? The owner has three mags loaded w/ .32ACP ammo. Is this an acceptable alternative? Anybody care to speculate what this might be worth?

**Mike Irwin** · July 19, 2001, 03:31 PM

It's chambered for the .35 S&W semi-auto pistol cartridge, which has been obsolete since before World War II.

I can't remember the model no. of the gun, or exactly when it was made, but they weren't all that popular, and not too many were made.

S&W decided that it wanted its own cartridge to compete with the .32 ACP, so they brought out the .35 S&W Auto. Big mistake.

So, after about 5 years of abysmal sales, they rechambered the gun in .32 ACP.

By that time it was too late. The gun was pretty much DOA, and not all that many .32s were made.

You CAN fire .32 ACP in the .35 chamber, but the cases will bulge a little bit.

johnwill · July 19, 2001, 04:26 PM

The S&W 1913 is listed in the Blue Book for $450 - 90% and $375 - 80%, so it would fall in that range.

I consulted Cartridges of the World, and under .35 S&W Auto.

"THE #% S&W Auto is actually a .32-caliber cartridge and is similar to the .32ACP. In fact, it is possible to fire .32ACP ammo in some 35 semi-auto pistols."
FWIW, they have a picture of the S&W 1913 pistol next to the description.

I don't have any dimensions for the round, so it's hard to say how safe firing .32ACP would be in that gun...

C.R.Sam · July 19, 2001, 09:14 PM

To the preceeding I would like to add....for laughs?

"The .35 S&W Automatic is adaped to the S&W magazine pistol. It is a very accurate cartridge, has no unpleasant recoil and... is well adapted for target shooting.".......from the ammunition section of my Himmelwright, 1915 edition.

Same book gives a load of 1.9gr Bullseye drivin 76 gr LRN bullet at 809fps from a 3½" bbl. And that exact diameter for the .35 S&W bullet was supposed to be .3195".

Sam

James K · July 19, 2001, 09:35 PM

One thing going for the .35 S&W is that it is rimless.

Jim

johnwill · July 20, 2001, 08:20 AM

Since I'm about to take possession of the S&W 1913 pictured previously, I'm curious as to the validity of the statement that it was possible to fire .32ACP in "some .35 S&W guns". None of my books have dimensions for the .35 S&W round, anyone have a comparison of it to the .32 ACP?

**Mike Irwin** · July 20, 2001, 10:18 AM

John,

Doesn't cartridges of the world have dimensions for the .35 at the very end of the pistols section, in a HUGE chart?

I didn't check mine last night, so I don't know if the .35 is included or not.

If you don't find it there, let me check some of my conversion references. I should be able to find it in Donnelly's book, if nowhere else.

oweno · July 20, 2001, 11:48 AM

Is the .35 S&W the round that used that really sharp-pointed bullet? If it is, it was a strange looking round.

SDC · July 20, 2001, 12:31 PM

According to my copy of Cartridges of the World, the 35 S&W Auto is slightly larger than the 32 ACP in all dimensions EXCEPT overall cartridge length; they MAY be interchangeable, but I don't think I'd try it with MY collectible.

johnwill · July 20, 2001, 04:34 PM

Mike you sly devil, there is a chart, never noticed it before.

As mentioned later, it's just slightly larger in all dimensions, interesting...

I'm not sure I'd want to risk shooting .32ACP in the gun, but I can see where the comment about it working in some of them probably came from. It appears that the rim of the .32ACP might be the problem area, perhaps OAL as well. I'll keep trying to find some reasonably priced ammo for it, have to at least shoot it once!

James K · July 20, 2001, 10:18 PM

Hi, oweno and guys,

I never saw a .35 S&W with a pointed bullet; you might be thinking of the old 9mm Parabellum (Luger) with the truncated cone bullet. The .35 S&W does not look like a .32ACP as much as like a .380 on Slim Fast.

The .35 was made for a while with a bullet that had grease in it; when fired, the grease was pushed out through holes at the side of the bullet and lubricated the barrel. Also, the original bullets were made with lead sides and a cupronickel tip; S&W was concerned about jacketed bullets giving excessive wear, but lead bullets would not feed. Great ideas in theory, but expensive nonsense in reality.

Since Colt had the Browning patents sewed up (among them was the slide concept in a blowback pistol), S&W bought the Belgian Clement patents. The Clement featured a very light breechblock and had been made only in 5.5 Clement and 6.35. S&W wanted something more powerful but had a devil of a time getting the thing to work with the light breechblock. They finally used a doozy of a recoil spring, one so powerful that it was almost impossible to operate the breechblock by hand. So they added a disconnector so that the breechblock could be operated for loading the first round. But with the spring disconnected, the block has to be pulled back and pushed forward.

The safety system is also interesting. There are two safeties, a grip safety at the front of the grip and a "wheel"-like safety at the back. The latter can (in theory) be "rolled off" with the web of the thumb. All in all, an awkward system. Sometimes the genius of a designer is shown by how far out competitors have to go to work around his patents.

I do not think I would have liked to have been a designer at S&W in that period with the bosses on your fanny to make their stupid mistake work, somehow!

Note that there are still remnants of the Clement design in modern S&W .22 pistols, including the Model 41. They seem to have wanted to keep that "S&W look".

Jim

**Mike Irwin** · July 20, 2001, 10:38 PM

I went and fished the .35 S&W out of my cartridge collection.

It is headstamped WRA Co. at 12 o'clock and .35 S&W at 6 o'clock.

It has an FMJ bullet, possibly with a cupronickle jacket as it's a silver-gray in color.

In looking it over, I noticed something that I never had before, there is a tiny W stamped into the side of the bullet!

Hutch · July 22, 2001, 08:24 PM

Okay, anybody got clues where .35 ammo can be had? What might one expect to pay for it? Thanks....

PS: This one appears to be in similar condition to the one in the attachment.

James K · July 22, 2001, 09:52 PM

I just checked one source, Old Western Scrounger (www.ows-ammo.com) and no luck. It was going for $6 a round or so a while back. I don't know if it can be made from anything, as I have not checked.

Jim

Hutch · July 23, 2001, 12:43 PM

Well, the owner reports good results with .32ACP ammo, so I guess he'll stick with that. I've convinced him to seek an alternative for personal defense.

johnwill · July 23, 2001, 04:24 PM

http://[email protected] claims to have S&W .35 for $63 for a box of 50. Not cheap, maybe the .32ACP isn't as bad an idea as it first sounded!

July 19, 2001, 03:05 PM	#1
Hutch Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2000 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 1,124	Original S&W automatic I'm away from home and my Jinks book. Someone has shown me a small S&W auto from the early part of the 1900's. It appears to be about 85% condition, has a 4-digit serial number on the front strap. It reads "35 S&W Auto". What's this li'l feller actually chambered ? The owner has three mags loaded w/ .32ACP ammo. Is this an acceptable alternative? Anybody care to speculate what this might be worth? __________________ "First, the freedom to own and carry the weapon of your choice is a natural, fundamental, and inalienable human, individual, civil, and Constitutional right -- subject neither to the democratic process nor to arguments grounded in social utility" -- L. Neil Smith ' I have an [in]alienable right to bear arms. I will exercise my own judgement in their use and accept responsibilty for the consequences' - Oakleaf

July 19, 2001, 03:31 PM	#2
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,381	It's chambered for the .35 S&W semi-auto pistol cartridge, which has been obsolete since before World War II. I can't remember the model no. of the gun, or exactly when it was made, but they weren't all that popular, and not too many were made. S&W decided that it wanted its own cartridge to compete with the .32 ACP, so they brought out the .35 S&W Auto. Big mistake. So, after about 5 years of abysmal sales, they rechambered the gun in .32 ACP. By that time it was too late. The gun was pretty much DOA, and not all that many .32s were made. You CAN fire .32 ACP in the .35 chamber, but the cases will bulge a little bit. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

July 20, 2001, 10:18 AM	#7
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,381	John, Doesn't cartridges of the world have dimensions for the .35 at the very end of the pistols section, in a HUGE chart? I didn't check mine last night, so I don't know if the .35 is included or not. If you don't find it there, let me check some of my conversion references. I should be able to find it in Donnelly's book, if nowhere else. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

July 20, 2001, 10:38 PM	#12
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,381	I went and fished the .35 S&W out of my cartridge collection. It is headstamped WRA Co. at 12 o'clock and .35 S&W at 6 o'clock. It has an FMJ bullet, possibly with a cupronickle jacket as it's a silver-gray in color. In looking it over, I noticed something that I never had before, there is a tiny W stamped into the side of the bullet! __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

July 22, 2001, 08:24 PM	#13
Hutch Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2000 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 1,124	Okay, anybody got clues where .35 ammo can be had? What might one expect to pay for it? Thanks.... PS: This one appears to be in similar condition to the one in the attachment. __________________ "First, the freedom to own and carry the weapon of your choice is a natural, fundamental, and inalienable human, individual, civil, and Constitutional right -- subject neither to the democratic process nor to arguments grounded in social utility" -- L. Neil Smith ' I have an [in]alienable right to bear arms. I will exercise my own judgement in their use and accept responsibilty for the consequences' - Oakleaf

July 19, 2001, 04:26 PM	#3
johnwill Senior Member Join Date: April 6, 2000 Location: PA Posts: 3,451	The S&W 1913 is listed in the Blue Book for $450 - 90% and $375 - 80%, so it would fall in that range. I consulted Cartridges of the World, and under .35 S&W Auto. "THE #% S&W Auto is actually a .32-caliber cartridge and is similar to the .32ACP. In fact, it is possible to fire .32ACP ammo in some 35 semi-auto pistols." FWIW, they have a picture of the S&W 1913 pistol next to the description. I don't have any dimensions for the round, so it's hard to say how safe firing .32ACP would be in that gun...

July 19, 2001, 09:14 PM	#4
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	To the preceeding I would like to add....for laughs? "The .35 S&W Automatic is adaped to the S&W magazine pistol. It is a very accurate cartridge, has no unpleasant recoil and... is well adapted for target shooting.".......from the ammunition section of my Himmelwright, 1915 edition. Same book gives a load of 1.9gr Bullseye drivin 76 gr LRN bullet at 809fps from a 3½" bbl. And that exact diameter for the .35 S&W bullet was supposed to be .3195". Sam

July 19, 2001, 09:35 PM	#5
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	One thing going for the .35 S&W is that it is rimless. Jim

July 20, 2001, 08:20 AM	#6
johnwill Senior Member Join Date: April 6, 2000 Location: PA Posts: 3,451	Since I'm about to take possession of the S&W 1913 pictured previously, I'm curious as to the validity of the statement that it was possible to fire .32ACP in "some .35 S&W guns". None of my books have dimensions for the .35 S&W round, anyone have a comparison of it to the .32 ACP?

July 20, 2001, 11:48 AM	#8
oweno Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 1999 Location: was NH, is FL Posts: 159	Is the .35 S&W the round that used that really sharp-pointed bullet? If it is, it was a strange looking round.

July 20, 2001, 12:31 PM	#9
SDC Senior Member Join Date: January 23, 2001 Location: People's Republic of Kanada Posts: 1,652	According to my copy of Cartridges of the World, the 35 S&W Auto is slightly larger than the 32 ACP in all dimensions EXCEPT overall cartridge length; they MAY be interchangeable, but I don't think I'd try it with MY collectible.

July 20, 2001, 04:34 PM	#10
johnwill Senior Member Join Date: April 6, 2000 Location: PA Posts: 3,451	Mike you sly devil, there is a chart, never noticed it before. As mentioned later, it's just slightly larger in all dimensions, interesting... I'm not sure I'd want to risk shooting .32ACP in the gun, but I can see where the comment about it working in some of them probably came from. It appears that the rim of the .32ACP might be the problem area, perhaps OAL as well. I'll keep trying to find some reasonably priced ammo for it, have to at least shoot it once!

July 20, 2001, 10:18 PM	#11
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Hi, oweno and guys, I never saw a .35 S&W with a pointed bullet; you might be thinking of the old 9mm Parabellum (Luger) with the truncated cone bullet. The .35 S&W does not look like a .32ACP as much as like a .380 on Slim Fast. The .35 was made for a while with a bullet that had grease in it; when fired, the grease was pushed out through holes at the side of the bullet and lubricated the barrel. Also, the original bullets were made with lead sides and a cupronickel tip; S&W was concerned about jacketed bullets giving excessive wear, but lead bullets would not feed. Great ideas in theory, but expensive nonsense in reality. Since Colt had the Browning patents sewed up (among them was the slide concept in a blowback pistol), S&W bought the Belgian Clement patents. The Clement featured a very light breechblock and had been made only in 5.5 Clement and 6.35. S&W wanted something more powerful but had a devil of a time getting the thing to work with the light breechblock. They finally used a doozy of a recoil spring, one so powerful that it was almost impossible to operate the breechblock by hand. So they added a disconnector so that the breechblock could be operated for loading the first round. But with the spring disconnected, the block has to be pulled back and pushed forward. The safety system is also interesting. There are two safeties, a grip safety at the front of the grip and a "wheel"-like safety at the back. The latter can (in theory) be "rolled off" with the web of the thumb. All in all, an awkward system. Sometimes the genius of a designer is shown by how far out competitors have to go to work around his patents. I do not think I would have liked to have been a designer at S&W in that period with the bosses on your fanny to make their stupid mistake work, somehow! Note that there are still remnants of the Clement design in modern S&W .22 pistols, including the Model 41. They seem to have wanted to keep that "S&W look". Jim

July 22, 2001, 09:52 PM	#14
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I just checked one source, Old Western Scrounger (www.ows-ammo.com) and no luck. It was going for $6 a round or so a while back. I don't know if it can be made from anything, as I have not checked. Jim

July 23, 2001, 12:43 PM	#15
Hutch Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2000 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 1,124	Well, the owner reports good results with .32ACP ammo, so I guess he'll stick with that. I've convinced him to seek an alternative for personal defense. __________________ "First, the freedom to own and carry the weapon of your choice is a natural, fundamental, and inalienable human, individual, civil, and Constitutional right -- subject neither to the democratic process nor to arguments grounded in social utility" -- L. Neil Smith ' I have an [in]alienable right to bear arms. I will exercise my own judgement in their use and accept responsibilty for the consequences' - Oakleaf

July 23, 2001, 04:24 PM	#16
johnwill Senior Member Join Date: April 6, 2000 Location: PA Posts: 3,451	http://[email protected] claims to have S&W .35 for $63 for a box of 50. Not cheap, maybe the .32ACP isn't as bad an idea as it first sounded!