Does everyone shoot center mass?

[Nnobby45]

I aim for the big toe, because I carry a .45, and if you get hit even in the big toe with a .45, you're going down.

Ha Ha. Always a wiseacre on every thread.

Now for a sensible analysis:

It's obvious that the recipient of such a wound, when anatomical information is considered along with the tactical solution, that he would be hopping around on one foot, therefore increasing the difficulty of followup shots.

[Gator_Weiss]

Shooting someone in the big toe with a .45 is no different than shooting them in the big toe with anything else.

I am sorry, but I have to laugh when I here these weird little .45 caliber stories. A few months back, I heard some blowhard in a coffee shop telling his young son that the marines carried the .45 in WW-2 because even if one of the bullets hit the enemy soldier in the little finger he was going to be knocked to the ground by the force of it.

Well, I kept quiet. I sipped my over priced coffee and did not say a thing about it. But I had to grin a little bit.

I want to see a box of these .45 wonder bullets.

I want to see the big toe and little finger scenarios and stats.

The .45 acp has it's merits and it has it's limitations like any other pistol cartridge. Downing suspects from toe and finger shots isnt among those merits.

Hell, I can remember .45 acp hard ball sticking in plywood back stops on a range. I can remember .45 acp hard ball in the junk yard glancing off of junk cars and side windows and windshields. But I can also remember that many criminal suspects and battelfield enemies have been shot dead with it as well.

Is there ANYONE on this forum that either directly participated in, or is credibly informed of any person "going down" as a direct result of a big toe or little finger shot?

[Old Grump]

Is there ANYONE on this forum that either directly participated in, or is credibly informed of any person "going down" as a direct result of a big toe or little finger shot?

No but I have a good one. I was teaching my father in law to shoot handguns and we finally left the 22 and moved up to the 45. First few magazines the beer can on the fence post was pretty safe, distance maybe 50' but probably a little less.

Suddenly the can takes off like a rocket straight up in the air a good 20' or better just guessing. When it finally landed he ran over and looked for the hole and was puzzled when he couldn't find one. I saw the dent on the top of the can, looked on the bottom and right near the edge of the can was the entrance hole. Checked out the fence post, old weathered and had dry rotted on the top. Bullet went in low about 10", was deflected up at a 90 degree angle through the middle of the post and into the can. Had enough energy to punch its way in but not enough to punch its way out so we got the flying beer can. He kept that can a long time till somebody threw it out. I love 45's, you never know what they are going to do next.

[Chaz88]

"I've never been trained or told to shoot at extremeties, but I've read of weapons and/or hands and arms holding them being unintentionally hit due to the shooters focus on the weapon vs the attacker."

I tend to agree with this. If you are not deliberate about aiming you tend to automatically point where you are looking. Kind of like riding a motorcycle or driving a car out of a skid. Look where you want to go not the direction you are going.

I once had an old cowboy, that was a bit of a quick draw, teach me that if you can learn to point a gun the way you point your finger you will mostly be on target. Try it. Quickly point your finger at something. Then sight down your finger. Most people will be real close to on target.

[Nnobby45]

Is there ANYONE on this forum that either directly participated in, or is credibly informed of any person "going down" as a direct result of a big toe or little finger shot?

NO, there ISN'T, unless you count people who really whimmped out and feinted---which has happened even when shots have missed. NO, I'm not going to research finger and toe hits and misses and give you evidence.

Croz was clearly MAKING FUN of some of the old legends and myths surrounding the "stopping power" of the .45, and did so with unmistakable intended humor. Or at least I thought it was unmistakeable. HaveamartiniandLightenupalittle.

[lomaxanderson]

nipples to eyebrows preferably...but if I have no shot there anywhere is game...

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Some people are phobic about blood producing injuries. Dentists see this quite alot. Thus, if their finger or toe was shot off, they would pass out.

So it is possible.

Anyway, shoot what you see first. At the NTI, we had a tricky situation where a torso and head would pop out. However, there was a leg that was constantly out there. If you waited for the head, you were chastized. The leg was a freebie - take it.

Same thing in another FOF, there comes a big leg - bang. So the rest of the interaction is me being whole and the opponent with a big hole dead center of inner thigh.

[MoBart]

center mass every time, well in a perfect world, realisticly, we would probably shoot at the weapon as that would be the main focus of our attention and reaction, but when I was working security as well as working with a couple security mission units in the Marine Corps I was always told that anything other then a leathal shot (ie shooting a person in the leg) would not be the most expedieant method to end the threat, and in law encorement and or security circles could be the basis for an exsessive force complaint. I don't remember ever hearing about one of those being filed but in this sociaty, anything is possible. Our police department settled a wrongfull death suit filed by a family after a suspect threatend officers with a BBQ fork repeatedly refused to drop the fork and made aggresive movements towards them. He did die of course so maybe not relevent, but to highlight our law suit freindly sociaty again, they filed the suit and the PD settled rather then go to tril with it. I noticed a mention about a groin shot earlier, before anyone gives this guy to much trouble, lets think about a groin for a second, the pelvis is there, and is one of the main support structures of the body, break that, the aggresor is grounded, the spine is in the center of the groin (albeit at the end of the spine) snap or break that with a bullet and again, not alot of fight left in a man who cant stand, the femoral arteries run through the groin, damage them and you have an enourmas amount of blood loss in amazingly short span of time, again, incapacitated. The groin is a larger, easier target to hit then the head. Perhaps we should think about trying to learn to make groin shots a second step in a failure to stop drill and the very difficult under fire head shot a third and last resort, just a though, have a nice night fellas

as to the big toes getting shot off, a buddy of dads shot his off at contact distance, with a .30-06 when he was trying to reload a rifle, drive a truck through a cow pasture and figure out where a deer he had shot was headed. He said, as we took him to the hospital, he closed the boalt, the rifle fired, he got out and tried to figure out why his truck died. He said he walked around a minute, then climbed underneath to see what the bullet had hit, it was when he got out from under the truck maybe 2 - 3 minutes after shooting his toe nail centermass more or less that he noticed the blood and squishy feeling in his boot. Thank fully we were all hunting in our trucks that morning from pasture hill tops, so he called dad on a CB (does anyone still have one of those besides truckers? lol) and we went to get him. So, apperently a big toe shot is not really a guarenteed fight stopper, lol. For further proof, rent Harlem Nights with Eddie Murphy, he shoots a ladies toe off, and she was ****** off about it. The deal with dads hunting buddy really did happen though, now its funny, at the time not so much.

[EnoughGUN]

Pelvis. Large area, lower so your in line with if sooner when bringing the gun up, area has large arteries in it, supports the rest of the body, no one keeps coming with a shattered pelvis I don't care how much crack, meth, redbull they are on. I never thought of it but this was the advice of the instructor in my CCw class. The more I think about it the more sense it makes. Someone can get baddly shot in almost any area and under the right conditions keep coming because the wound does not remove their physical ability to stay standing and walk while a busted pelvis does a pretty good job of both.

[KenpoTex]

That's true if you buy into the assumption that a handgun round will reliably and consistently "shatter" the pelvis...

Based on a number of articles and even a few conversations with medical professionals (some of whom are also firearms instructors), I remain unconvinced that deliberately targeting the pelvis with the expectation of incapacitation is sound doctrine.

[garryc]

If I see a threat to myself, another officer or a member of the public it's Tac-Tac center mass every time, all the time. If your actions fall within the manner you are trained you should not have a problem. Call in the person who trained you, as him/her exactly how you are trained. Tac-Tac CoM is the answer, 'nuff said. It doesn't matter if they haul in 50 buddies who say you can hit a fly in mid air, you act within your training.

That being said, I have never fired qualification with a perfect score, I always miss with one round. I ain't perfect is the reason, and I want it on record that I'm not perfect.

I remain unconvinced that deliberately targeting the pelvis with the expectation of incapacitation is sound doctrine.

I was trained in incapacitation shots, But only with the tacticle rifle.

[davecharles]

When I was first trained to shoot in LE academy we shot center mass only (on bullseye targets). That was 32 years ago, we also used revolvers. A few years later we went to a silouette target and center mass only. I became a range officer and learned more about training others. I saw shooters that could make head shots under stress at 50 yards and others that spread 5 out of 6 rounds all over a silouette target (who knows where the 6th round went)
In the early 90's our agency went to The 4043 S&W DA only pistol allowing us 12 rounds without a reload and 2 more mags instantly available. We concentrated on center mass hits and with body armor more readily available we taught 2 center mass then quick evaluation, 2 head shots/groin shots.
We were taught to shoot only to protect ourselves and others and to shoot only when deadly force was required. No shots to hands or legs were taught but I still saw a few shooters that threw shots into those areas. I know of another agency that was taught the ZIPPER method. Start shooting at the groin (or lower) and as the recoil of the gun causes the muzzle to rise keep shooting higher stopping at the head (or threat ended).
Dave

[brickeyee]

no one keeps coming with a shattered pelvis

What SD handgun has sufficient power to reliably shatter a pelvis?

And as previously noted, there are even more blood vessels in the chest, and they are even larger than any in the pelvis.

Arteries get smaller as you move away from the heart, and veins get larger as you move towards the heart.

To speak nothing of actually striking the heart that makes the whole thing work.

[EnoughGUN]

I have noticed that no matter what someone comes up with there is an argument that states the opposite.
Say a 45 is better then a 9 mm and someone says a 45 is not much larger and too slow to expand or wont go through enough cloths so a 9 mm is better because it penetrates more and it does expands to the same size or larger then a 45.
The next guy will say a 9 mm is too small and a 45 will expand plus deliver more energy to a target blah blah
The next guy says shoot center mass. Larger area more organs etc
The next guy says that has too much area that when shot wont stop someone fast enough or at all. Only a shot to 20% of the center mass area will stop someone dead so you are shooting at a large area with a low chance of a killing shot. Best to shoot for the head and go for a smaller target that will stop someone instantly.
His buddy will argue that a head shot is too hard and you should shoot for the waist to drop the guy and maybe hit one of the huge arteries or hip joints.
The guy working at the gun shop they are in will laugh call them idiots and say a handgun wont stop anyone reliably use a long gun or nothing.
A customer in the shop who thinks he is a Navy Seal will say you are all wrong and you should use a small caliber high capacity handgun and just train yourself to be able to shoot someone in the eye 12 times even if you are on fire, blind, tied up and hanging upside down.

You can come up with a good and strongly supported argument for almost any view point and they all have pros and cons.
Buy a gun you can handle and WILL use
Train with so you are skilled using it.
Find out what works best for you. If I could reliably draw, fire and hit a target in the head a couple times from a good distance that is where I would shoot someone.
Don't expect a gun to do all the work. A small controllable easy to follow up a shot with 380 is not going to be a good stopper while a 500 magnum may stop the guy if you can actually hit him with it.
No gun is best for every occasion but training helps in all of them.

Personally I like a 45 because I believe it WILL expand, mine has no kick, still holds 15 rounds and is proven to work a good % of the time.
If I had to shoot someone like an intruder in my house with a weapon etc and I had the ability and opportunity to get off more then one shot one in the waist one in the gut and one in the chest as the muzzle rose would please me just fine.

[garryc]

What SD handgun has sufficient power to reliably shatter a pelvis?

And as previously noted, there are even more blood vessels in the chest, and they are even larger than any in the pelvis.

Arteries get smaller as you move away from the heart, and veins get larger as you move towards the heart.

To speak nothing of actually striking the heart that makes the whole thing work.

I tend to agree. The thing about a pelvis shot is that only certain areas will stop mobility every time. That area is the hip joint. I'm not sure about the pistols ability to completely disable a hip. but I am sure of the rifles ability. Blow out that hip joint, and he's going nowhere. Small target though.

[EnoughGUN]

Quote:
Quote:
no one keeps coming with a shattered pelvis

What SD handgun has sufficient power to reliably shatter a pelvis?

And as previously noted, there are even more blood vessels in the chest, and they are even larger than any in the pelvis.

Arteries get smaller as you move away from the heart, and veins get larger as you move towards the heart.

To speak nothing of actually striking the heart that makes the whole thing work.

I tend to agree. The thing about a pelvis shot is that only certain areas will stop mobility every time. That area is the hip joint. I'm not sure about the pistols ability to completely disable a hip. but I am sure of the rifles ability. Blow out that hip joint, and he's going nowhere. Small target though.

Heart is a damn small target too no? Center mass is a great big area with very little of it that will result in a instant stopping shot. You have to hit the heart, spine (and sever it) and that is about it. Figure that to sever the spine you need to hit it pretty much center so that is a one inch wide target maybe 15 inches long (less then 4 square inches). The heart maybe another 4 square inches. So you are shooting at a center mass of 15 square inches not particularly aiming specifically at the two small 4 inch targets so you are even less likely to hit one? Not saying statistically is is a better bet then the head or waist but geeze those are sad odds.

[brickeyee]

You have to hit the heart, spine (and sever it) and that is about it.

Even a blow to the spinal column that does not sever the cord is going to put someone on the ground.

Nerves do not like being struck, and are very sensitive to pressure and impact.

Think of how your hand fails to work correctly after hitting your 'funny bone.'

You have banged the ulnar nerve against the bone.
It does not take much to inhibit nerve function, if only briefly.

If you deliver an impact to the spinal column the person is very likely to fall to the ground from the even temporary inhibition of nerve function.


While the major vessels and the heart in the chest are not very large targets, they are still larger and more numerous than anything in the pelvis.


The pulmonary circulation is only present in the chest.

[EnoughGUN]

Seriously? You can shoot a Guy 3 timed center mass hitting all sorts of stuff with a 45 and he can keep coming under the right conditions with busted organs and mortal wounds ( has happened) but grazing his spine funnybone style is goingto drop him? I don't think you thought that out. People have kept fighting after being teased, I doubt ringing his bell spine wise is reliably effective.

[KenpoTex]

People have kept fighting after being teased

I tend to fight even harder when I'm teased...Yessir, I get downright nasty.











sorry...couldn't resist

[MTT TL]

Shooting someone in the big toe with a .45 is no different than shooting them in the big toe with anything else.

I am thinking there would be less big toe left than say if you shot them with a .22.

Anyway, two to the triangle and one to the head. Training you know, hard to break.

[EnoughGUN]

Tased , I blame spell check.

[vox rationis]

One can read a short debunking of the utility of shots to the pelvis here.

[mete]

Dr Fackler's comments are always enlightening ! There is however a shot on game that has long been known to be effective .Hitting the base of the spine paralyses the entire back end of the animal. I watched a video recently of such a hit on a cape buffalo.The entire back end dropped instantly .
Like so many hits it depends on exactly where the bullet hits.
Many don't understand the anatomy of a person and don't want to kill the criminal so they want to 'shoot him in the leg'' .To those I always ask "what happens when you hit him in the femoral artery ? " They respond 'what's a femoral artery ?'
Upper chest hits have been shown to be more effective than the C of M hits. Shhot and continue to shoot until the perp is no longer a threat !!
BTW good socialist countries like Denmark often have some peculiar ideas about shooting perps and they are not based on reality !

[jborushko]

center mass every time!!! and aim small, miss small!

[1911 Jim]

Granted, I haven't read this from the beginning, but there's some really bad info on this last page.


If you poke a hole in a lung, they'll suffocate in short order.

If you hit a bone on the way in, it's going to tear a lot of internal tissue as it shatters causing internal bleeding which will lead to death, also in short order.

What you need to realise, is that even when you do hit the heart, they've still got enough oxygen in the muscles to carry out tasks for a few seconds before losing consciousness or the physical ability to move said muscles.


A center mass hit is not an instantaneous "dead" shot. However, it's the largest target you can aim for and thus provides you with the best chance for at least potentially slowing them down, even if you only manage to hit them in the gut. If you do only manage to hit them in the gut, it could be an hour or more before they died from it - however, it might be proof enough for them to realise continuing the assault is a very bad proposition and that might be enough to stop them.

It's also worth noting that if you do manage to incapacitate them (or at least make them quit the assault), but not kill them, any further shots might be the difference between reasonable and excessive force. The latter putting you in prison if it's determined to be the case. This is why you don't talk to anyone but your lawyer if you are so unfortunate as to have to shoot someone.

Here in MN, we have a duty to render aid to an attacker once they've stopped the assault (outside of the home, that is). I see that as my duty to call 911 - let the paramedics save the SOB. After all, I'm not a trauma surgeon, so I wouldn't want to make him any worse off by doing something wrong...