ramifications of the Walther/S&W divorce

[carguychris]

Originally Posted by SpareMag

The paddle release is one of the great features of the PPQ series, and it is sheer Not-Invented-Here American obstinacy that is forcing Walther to back away from a really nice feature.

What's ironic is that the button-style mag release actually originated with the German Luger, but is now widely viewed as an "American" feature largely because the original 1911 selection committee had tested the Parabellum, loved the mag release, and decreed that the new U.S. M1911 service pistol should have one like it.

Originally Posted by DPris

I'm one of those idiots with limited skills who happens to think the PPQ2 is by far the best iteration of the P99/PPQ models... That paddle mag release (not the safety) was the tipper that tilted the scale away from me buying one when the PPQ first came out... You like it- fine. I don't. I don't call those who do idiots.

+1.

Originally Posted by WVsig

The reality is Walther has never had a large presence in the US market. I think they saw the P99 as a start and the PPQ as an opportunity but greatest asset to these guns will be their undoing in the LEO/Govt Market in the US.

Don't forget that the original paddle-mag P99 has already essentially failed on the U.S. market once over... when it was being offered as the SW99.

Although I can't see into the minds of company's corporate boards either, I've long suspected that the M&P program was rooted in disappointment on the part of S&W management, which presumably entered into the original agreement hoping that a rebadged P99 would succeed where the Sigma had failed.

[DPris]

Walther's trying to increase their presence in the US & sees this mag button change as one way to do that.

Posters in this thread are assuming they're in the majority opinion, which is against the change. That may not be true.
I've seen more commentary on Internet forums over the years against that paddle than I have here in favor of it. It simply is not universally loved & Walther is reacting to that.

Denis

[WVsig]

Don't forget that the original paddle-mag P99 has already essentially failed on the U.S. market once over... when it was being offered as the SW99.

Although I can't see into the minds of company's corporate boards either, I've long suspected that the M&P program was rooted in disappointment on the part of S&W management, which presumably entered into the original agreement hoping that a rebadged P99 would succeed where the Sigma had failed.

I do not see the P99 and SW99 as a failure of the mag release design it was a failure to properly and effectively market that pistol. If it has a push button release it would still have failed.

If paddle mag releases were all destined for failure in the US market HK would be going under because they seem rather found of it.

The M&P program is S&Ws answer to the Glock which the SW99 never was. The Sigma well the Sigma just sucked.... LOL To me the M&P was S&W getting back to a meat and potatoes LEO gun like the 3rd Gen Smiths. The SW99 was never going to be that gun.

I personally do not understand why people are getting their panties in a wad about the 2 different style releases since both will be available in the US market. The funnest part is that Walther can't produce enough of either to meet the current demand.... LOL

[Herr Walther]

Where in Germany specifically or Europe in general is there such market potential for a hi-cap non-sporting and non-military pistol? Denis

Bremen P99 Q
Hamburg P99 Q
Nordheim-Westfalen P99 DAO
Rheinland-Pfalz P99 Q
Schleswig Holstein P99 Q
Wasserschutz Polizei P99

These are just the State Police departments that contract to Walther for Diestwaffen. It doesn`t include the hundreds of local departments that use Walther firearms.

How many US departments can you add to this list?

This doesn`t include foreign contracts for militaries or police.

Now, how do US sales compare with European sales?

[PP99]

The fact that the PPQ-M1 can use P99 & Magnum Research magazines, makes me love even more their paddle release design.

[SpareMag]

I am confused now...I have a Smith PPK/s. When I had issues with the first two, I worked with Smith to try to get things sorted. My experience was not positive. It would be nice if Walther took over support, but I can't see Walther fixing Smith-created issues.

[DPris]

Herr,
Good for you.
Police sales alone can't keep a company in business.
We're wandering.
Denis

[Mystro]

If Walther's is not such a popular brand, ....Why is it that no gun shop can keep a PPQ in stock? The original PPQ already increased in value and is highly sought after. Seems to me the only problem with Walther's is they can't make enough of the PPQ to keep up with demand. The HK P30 should be so lucky, my dealer has 3 and a waiting list for the PPQ.

[pelo801]

The HK P30 should be so lucky, my dealer has 3 and a waiting list for the PPQ.

This is really apples and oranges. I mean, what's the price difference between the two? Like 300-400$?

I have to weigh in on he paddle style release as well. To me, it just makes so much sense. It really does make a push button type seem so antiquated. With barely any practice it becomes such a natural motion.

Bringing it back to the original topic. I was hoping the split would bring the prices of the PPS down some. I also want one in the 9mm flavor.

[kcub]

The HK P30 should be so lucky, my dealer has 3 and a waiting list for the PPQ.

HK has a different self made controversy, the spiderman grip which the P30 and full size HK45 have. People either love or hate them (I hate them). That's why there are 3 on the shelf.

I was hoping the split would bring the prices of the PPS down some. I also want one in the 9mm flavor.

They make it in 9 as well as .40 which I carry.

[pelo801]

I also have and carry the 40. I just want one in 9mm too.

[Herr Walther]

Herr,
Good for you.
Police sales alone can't keep a company in business.
We're wandering.
Denis

You brought it up.

Don't forget about the Dutch contract for their entire government police force, 45,000 P99 Q's for the Netherlands.

Oh, and there's a small contract of 7,800 for the Fins.

Just a drop in the bucket really after equiping six German Federal States and hundreds of their police departments, and 45K for the Dutch.

None of that would probably add much to their bottom line though. It's the huge Americanischer sales that really keep them going.

[WVsig]

Herr Walther don't confuse Dpris with facts. Of course Walther is looking to increase its US business but the civilian US market never has been and never will be Walthers bread and butter market.

[Herr Walther]

No, it won't and never will be.

[balance]

Wow. Some strong opinions here it seems, so maybe I should offer mine.

I'm no expert, but I've been following up on Walther and the P99 for years now, ever since I bought my first P99 about seven years ago.

Yea, for a German company to cater to Americans is a compromise and compromise in a firearm is never a good thing and many feel it is a sell out.

What exactly is the compromise here?

It was already stated that Walther was and is trying to cater to the US market. If they weren't, why would they have separated from S&W and opened up shop here?

Walther should have stayed the course with the PPQ "classic".

It has been in production since early 2011. They never discontinued it, they just stopped importation here for the time being. The head of marketing for Walther has stated that it will be imported again in the beginning of 2014.

Walther says they produced it in response to American consumer requests, and since Patrick Sweeney & I were not the only two who pointed out the paddle was the only thing stopping us from buying, I'd assume there are many other idiots with limited skills out there besides just us two.

I prefer the paddle/lever mag release design, but I have to agree with this. The way I see it, the PPQ M2 is a different pistol. The fact that it uses different mags does not bother me in the same way that the fact that Glock uses different mags than the PPQ M1 does not bother me.

I have my doubts as to whether Walther was listening to North American consumer requests.

In reality, the NA market is but a small dent in their bottom line. I don't really think they give a crap about what we think of their product unless the Europeans are in agreement.

None of the European members of the Walther forum have been able to find an M2. The M1 is still in production, for Europe. The M2 seems to be sold only in the US for the time being.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong here.

I'm not aware of large police contracts in Europe with the PPQ in any version.

There aren't any, and I doubt the PPQ will win police contracts, anywhere, due to the SAO trigger that weighs in at about 5lbs.

You assume that Walther was the one who chose to split.... I do not believe that to be the case.

I do.

The as S&W has pushed full force into the M&P world the Walther brand under them seems like more of a distraction than a money maker but again not knowing the details this is a guess. S&W did not get a lot out of Walther in the agreement beyond the PPK.

Back in 2001 when they got together, S&W only had the Sigma to compete with Glock pistols in the marketplace. This partnership with Walther allowed them to market the SW99 (which was essentially a P99 with a S&W slide and barrel) to win agency contracts. In return, Walther got an importer and a service center for their pistols here to gain some sales in the US marketplace.

Now it appears that Walther is trying to tap into the US market. What better way to do that, than to stop relying on one of your largest competitors to distribute, market, and service your pistols?

I believe the Netherlands adopted the PPQ and ordered somewhere in the range of 50,000.

They ordered the P99Q, which is a DA pistol.

I am not on the board of Walther or S&W so I do not assume to know exactly why they broke up but in the end it has little to no effect on the US consumer. If anything it should lower the price of Walther pistols because they will no longer have to pay S&W to market and service them.

Prices have gone down since 2011 when the PPQ was released. The P99 used to usually sell within $100 of the H&K P2000, which is one of the P99's main competitors in Europe.

The reality is Walther has never had a large presence in the US market. I think they saw the P99 as a start and the PPQ as an opportunity but greatest asset to these guns will be their undoing in the LEO/Govt Market in the US.

I believe this is what the PPX is for. I doubt the PPQ, with its SAO trigger will win a single police contract here.

In Europe, Walther's competition as far as contracts are concerned, is from H&K and Sig. The P99Q is their answer to that competition.

In the US, Walther's competition as far as contracts are concerned, is from Glock and S&W. I believe the PPX is their answer to that competition.

We'll see how that works for them.

I think it will be a popular seller but will never reach Glock/M&P/XD or even HK/Sig levels. Outside of the PPK and the P1 the name has little brand recognition outside shooting enthusiasts which make up a portion of the US pistol market. I am not sure the PPQ and their own importation company will change that.

The name's Bond, James Bond.

I believe more non-enthusiasts know about the PPK than the M&P.

Among enthusiasts, the PPQ is quickly becoming one of the more popular polymer pistols that is not a Glock or an M&P.

What's ironic is that the button-style mag release actually originated with the German Luger, but is now widely viewed as an "American" feature largely because the original 1911 selection committee had tested the Parabellum, loved the mag release, and decreed that the new U.S. M1911 service pistol should have one like it.

It is also ironic that Walther didn't use the paddle mag release up until 1997, with the introduction of the P99 to the world market.

Carl Walther opened up shop in Zella-Mehlis, Germany back in 1886, and they were making push-button mag release equipped pistols for around 90 years before the P99 was released.

Walther's trying to increase their presence in the US & sees this mag button change as one way to do that.

Posters in this thread are assuming they're in the majority opinion, which is against the change. That may not be true.
I've seen more commentary on Internet forums over the years against that paddle than I have here in favor of it. It simply is not universally loved & Walther is reacting to that.

I agree, but please don't bring this up too often. Someone at Walther may see this and change their mind about the re-release of the PPQ M1 in the US.

I strongly prefer the paddle/lever mag release design over the push-button mag release design, but I also prefer to see reality too.

I do not see the P99 and SW99 as a failure of the mag release design it was a failure to properly and effectively market that pistol. If it has a push button release it would still have failed.

I agree 100%, and whatever payment S&W got from Walther for the service of marketing their pistols, was money down the drain as far as I'm concerned.

The P99 was out since 1997. How many ads or marketing campaigns do any of you remember where a P99 was being marketed? I don't remember much, and I'm actually interested in the pistol.

I personally do not understand why people are getting their panties in a wad about the 2 different style releases since both will be available in the US market. The funnest part is that Walther can't produce enough of either to meet the current demand.... LOL

I agree, but I think it is more that people are disappointed with them ceasing to import the M1, than choosing to add the M2 to the line-up.

As long as the M1 is coming back, I could care less about other products they make that do not interest me.

Don't forget about the Dutch contract for their entire government police force, 45,000 P99 Q's for the Netherlands.

Oh, and there's a small contract of 7,800 for the Fins.

Just a drop in the bucket really after equiping six German Federal States and hundreds of their police departments, and 45K for the Dutch.

None of that would probably add much to their bottom line though. It's the huge Americanischer sales that really keep them going.

There is a larger market for the BMW 7-series in the US than anywhere else. They make the 7-series more for the US market than anyone else. Just because they sell more products overseas or in different countries, does not mean that they can't cater to, or market specific models here to make more profit.

There is a large market for polymer pistols in the US, regardless of whether or not there are larger markets somewhere else. I have to believe that they are trying to cater to us, after opening up their own import/distribution/service center here.

Walther never seemed to care much about the US before, but I think they are starting to do so now.

[DPris]

Gentlemen,
When I see myself generically referred to as an idiot with low skill levels right off the bat because I, along with a bunch of others, dislike the paddle, you can bet I'm not going to be in a happy frame of mind from the git-go.

That said, this IS wandering.

Walther did make the change for the reason I gave, in the quote I gave, and Walther IS trying to ramp up the US market.

The rest is largely irrelevant to the purposes of discussion here.

The US is obviously not Walther's entire market, neither is the European police system.

But, to revert, those of us who do not like the paddle dislike it for reasons, and those reasons don't have to be justified.
Walther believes there are enough of us to affect sales in their favor by making the change. One would assume they have their reasons, and it's not just to **** people off.

You can gripe about it all you want.
You can believe that Walther's action in adapting to their US market is a "compromise" and involves totally insignificant sales figures in this country all you want.
You can believe that the only important sales numbers for Walther are European police all you want.

You are not Walther, you don't talk to Walther, you don't know what their marketing plan is, and those, like me, who disliked that paddle and are quite happy to see an alternative, have every bit as much right to our opinions as any paddle-lover does.

If Walther is catering to a market they want to grow, that ain't a "compromise", it's sensible business.
If I prefer a button, I've got the background to create that preference & I know what my skill levels are.
Neither I nor anybody else who dislikes the paddle has to explain or defend those.

This thread started out with insults & has only gone downhill from there.
I'm done.
Denis

[RamItOne]

To the OP my first post seemed to hijack your thread, sorry for that. The damage is done however so I'll continue w/ the paddle debate.

The way I see it is the people that already like walther like the paddle release, its not what makes walther a walther, but it was a nice feature. Not every gun needs to be plain jane and generic (we already have glock ). Do we as gun owners want conformity or prefer a little diversity, I dont have to own a walther if i dont like the paddle release, would be just as happy w/ an M&P (own both).
It comes down to sales, when they looked at the american market they saw more people prefer the push button and probably realized they wouldnt lose many walther likers over the push button and would gain more new customers w/ having the push button. Catering to the masses isnt always a good thing, I think most people prefer an automatic transmission, but what if a sports car mfg takes that data and decides to change all their cars to automatics, theyd lose their core market (or at least disappoint). Now granted paddle shifters have become the compromise, but for arguments sake think back before paddle shifters were mainstream.


They can have any color they like as long as its black...

Bottom line for me, I like my P99 QA, my friends PPQ and the next walther I buy will probably be a P99cAS instead of their new line.


BTW I did a poll a while back on this subject
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=513812

[Fishbed77]

I'm not aware of large police contracts in Europe with the PPQ in any version.

You haven't heard of the PPQ winning any police contracts in Europe because it's sold as the P99Q (not to be confused with the P99QA) in the European law enforcement market, where it has won a few contracts. The very similar P99RAD has been adopted by the Polish military.

[carguychris]

I am confused now...I have a Smith PPK/s. When I had issues with the first two, I worked with Smith to try to get things sorted. My experience was not positive. It would be nice if Walther took over support, but I can't see Walther fixing Smith-created issues.

I know this post probably got lost in the paddle-release debate, so let me address it.

To reiterate my first post, the press releases I've read all indicate that S&W will continue to produce the PPK and PPK/S indefinitely, and it's my understanding that they are currently the sole producer of the centerfire versions. Furthermore, unless Walther were to add some non-original features, the PPK cannot be imported because it famously fails the ATF points test.

Walther/UImarex produces the .22LR PPK/S in Germany, but this pistol is somewhat different from the centerfire versions in several respects, notably the alloy slide.

Although I've not seen any press releases that directly address who will service the PPK and PPK/S in the future, it would seem logical to leave this in S&W's hands, as they are the ones with the parts.