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Old May 25, 2005, 02:28 PM   #101
YANKEESPY
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Pizza Hut Hero???

We call our license to carry a concealed weapon a CWP in Idaho.

Did you ever think that each of the adults in that pizza might also have theri own weapon. After all they already made up their minds about self protection. If they are from out of town from say Massaachusetts they may be someone who voted the extreme antigun law there.. I also have a Massachusetts Fire Arms Card since the first month they were issued. I was born there.

Some say blast them in the head... You may miss!!! (A body shot provides the best target.) If you miss you may find the BG is a better shot.. ( No matter; you are a loner with no family right?) You are sure that the gun toting BG does not see you.. Then you move for your gun... He sees you now drawing your weapon... Now his life is at stake.. He didn't intend to kill anyone but just scare them. He is now scared of you. You are going to blast him without so much as a word like "FREEZE" ......

Recently in Idaho and elsewhere the Police have fired several times at close range at armed assailent and hit them in the arm, leg, and stomach after three or more quick shots. Now they are trained to take out a BG with a gun. The go to pratice ranges all the time... THEY MISS !!! My self I am an expert with a few weapons and a combat vet. I have missed the mark and the BG coming over the barbed wire too.... Hae you seen the recent Police chase shootings lately on he news???? These experts fire dozens and even hundreds of rounds a the BG.... They don't kill him sometimes or he lingers on. You say you can drop him in a single shot.. I don't carry a .357. I learned the hard way that it often takes two rounds of a .380 to kill a sick or injured cat.

I don't think it is self defense to shot any one in the back of the head. You do have the requirement of the law that states imminant danger for self defense. He does not know you are there.. You are not in danger. There is no reason you can not get out safely right? I think you run into a legal problem ..... I don't think they'll give you a 'pass'..

I am a part time Private Investigator ( work for lawyers only ) .. I served two terms in an elected County Seat. I was once voted into a very high office in the Repulican Party. The Sheriff told me that if I shot someone in my own home that I would be arrested and jailed before I got to speak with an attorney about any defensive rights. And warned not to shoot anyone excaping out side my house

Say you do bring him down and get a 'pass' .. Now everyone in the pizza parlor can sue you as well as the BG family. Maybe the Pizza House Corp. will sue you too. You violated their polices. First is give the BG the money. Secondly they may have a 'no gun' rule in thier business....

Advise == watch out for potential BG before you go to a place that might get held up. Sit near an exit.... Don't carry a gun unless you need it. Don't shoot at skunks in allys ( they stink and the round will not normally stop in their body).


The 2nd Amendment does not say you can shoot local jerks stealing pizza. It does say that you can own a gun and carry it. That being watered down with the laws of certain States.


Now if the question were about an obvious Terrorist type person with a weapon or explosive I think the shot to kill quick would be accepted as a self defense action in most places..
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Old May 25, 2005, 02:53 PM   #102
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You can't be worrying about an "empty gun" or a "fake gun" - you are LEGALLY justified - you had VERY GOOD reason to believe 1) imminent use of deadly force was possible, and that 2) a robbery was being committed. I would worry about other suspects though.

"Don't carry a gun unless you need it"??? That type of...intuition would get us all alot farther in life - if it were only possible.
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Old May 25, 2005, 03:47 PM   #103
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YANKEESPY.... where to begin...

Are you really saying that if someone standing near you has a gun pointed at your head, that person shouldn't be shot because, hey, they MIGHT NOT kill you?

You want to wait to see if he kills you first?

Maybe it's not "self defense to shoot any one in the back of the head". However, (sadly, depending maybe on your location) it may certainly be justifiable homicide, if that "any one" has a gun drawn down on a innocent (cashier,in this case).

Finally, "Don't carry a gun unless you need it" ?? Wow, I really don't get that, at all.
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Old May 25, 2005, 03:50 PM   #104
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Bg Gets Dropped Where He Stands.

I personally have no problem stepping up to the plate. A fellow human is being threatened by an animal. Sorry but I choose the human over the animal.BG GETS DROPPED.

Don
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Old May 25, 2005, 05:41 PM   #105
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Thread is not just about self defense / preservation --- is also about the potental defense of others, if only worried about self preservation retreat and exit is probibly the safest bet (exit or not, windows work as well),

If worried about the defense of others then things get a little muddy, when a firearm is involved and a clean shot is there I say take it, back of the head or not, if deadly force is allowed to stop the comission of a crime you feel needs stoping then do it, don't lose a tactical advantage by announcing yourself if you don't have to, if it's not a firearm things change a little as while it may still be a deadly wepon you may be more inclined to announce and make demands or allow the bad guy to retreat, again being a judgement call on your part ---- calm guy maybe, obvious crank head probibly not, atliest for me. interms of any potental shooting situation it's much better to have things on your terms and to your advantage than to theirs (why do you think police do felony stops the way that they do? ) What you don't want to do is be in that place when you here shots from up front followed by foot steps your way
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Old May 28, 2005, 06:18 AM   #106
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Since in that case normaly a BG wants to get money and get out not realy trying to murder some one, I would become a witness to the crime. If he started shooting at people that would change. I wouldn't want a cash crime to turn deadly. At the same time if a guy was shooting in the air, He is probably not going to kill eather. By standers can always get hit by stray bullets too if you were thinking of trying to be a hero. A true hero sees that NO ONE gets hert!
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Old May 28, 2005, 01:02 PM   #107
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First, a quick look beyond/around the area to check for a possible accomplice and to see whether any bystanders are present. If there are multiple BGs or innocent folks close to the line of fire, I quickly note as much as I can about the BG(s) descriptions, back off and use my cell phone to call 911 for professional backup.

If there appears to be only the single robber, and the pizza guy and any other innocent people are out of my line of fire, I draw my weapon and level it at the BG's COM. Assuming I have managed to draw down on him without him seeing me yet, I yell FREEZE! DROP THE GUN! and give him one chance to choose his own survival. If at any point while doing the above he turns toward me or makes any move to harm the pizza guy, or if he doesn't comply instantly when I order him to drop his weapon, he gets new holes in his body as fast as I can send rounds downrange.

The BG may not have been a direct threat to me in the first place, but he is committing armed robbery ... a felony where I live ... he is threatening the life of another innocent human being (the pizza guy) and, indirectly, me and everyone else in the place. He is scum and probably doesn't even deserve the warning I yell at him (that is just me being too decent of a human being, I guess). He deserves to go to prison for a long time, and if he persists in his attack after my warning, he deserves to eat lead. And if my hands aren't shaking so much as to make me miss ... well ... down he goes, and I won't lose any sleep over it.
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Old May 28, 2005, 07:21 PM   #108
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Old May 28, 2005, 07:26 PM   #109
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The typical answer: "Shoot him, toss a twenty on the counter and say, Sorry about the mess."

In real life - I don't think we know until it happens.
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Old May 28, 2005, 10:26 PM   #110
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Sorry, just a little late

I say, draw on the BG, tell him to drop the gun and get on the floor, hold him till the police arrive. Even if he pulls the trigger he still has to spin to hit you. You drop him, head shot, lot's of time there to react. You are the only one that stands between him and innocent people. You have chosen to carry so take the responsiblity that comes with it. Even if you go to jail for it, you save the lives of all those in the place.
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Old May 28, 2005, 11:26 PM   #111
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Draw, aim, squeeze, BOOM!!

To quote Jeff Cooper:
"people today have gotten the idea in their heads that armed robbery is somehow okay as long as no one gets hurt. The ONLY proper resolution to an armed robbery is a dead robber on the floor, period."

If the scumsucker is brandishing a gun or pointing it at the pizza guy, you must operate under the belief that he intends to kill the pizza guy. The situation can go from "pointing" to "dead pizza guy" in a fraction of a second. What is to prevent the scumbag from going on a killing rampage once he has the cash? NOTHING - except for you and your handgun.

Ask yourself this question: If the scumbag kills the pizza guy - and maybe others - and you stood by and watched with a weapon and a clear shot, HOW WILL YOU FEEL AFTERWORDS knowing you could have saved someone's life AND DID NOTHING?? How will you live with that knowledge the rest of your life? That pizza guy is someone's son, someone's brother, someone's husband or maybe someone's dad. THINK ABOUT IT.

Part of our moral responsibility as CCW holders is to ACT when we can to save innocent life, regardless of whose life it is. If you refuse to act in this situation, where do you draw the line? Will you stand by as a woman is raped? While a man is beaten and mained by a trio of muggers?
While a child is dragged screaming into the car of a kidnapper?

Make the world a better place - draw, aim, squeeze, BOOM!! Cor-Bon HP to the base of the skull. Dead scumbag, live pizza guy, and a message sent to the scumbags of the world that we won't stand by and do nothing while they brutalize the defenseless.
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Old May 29, 2005, 03:46 AM   #112
Para Bellum
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legal question

I think that fully depends on the legal situation in your state and on details not posted. In my jurisdiction it would be justified to shoot the BG's brain stem from behind since he is threatening the life of the poor clerk. And this would probably be the only way to safely shoot (from the back),

BUT:
- can you do that in your state,
and BIGGER BUT:
- could it be done safely without hittng somebody else (a skull is easily penetrated by a 9x19mm, .40 or .357 (Sig/Mag.)

SO:
- you better draw silently, aim at BG and simultaneously walk out of there to call 911.
- in any case it would be wise to get your gun in your hands to reduce reaction time. You never know what such a BG is capable of or stupid enough to do...
- talk to the sohp owner and advise him to get two well-trained watchdogs (Dobermann, German Shepard, Rottweiler). There sheer presence might deterr BGs. And when the sauce hits the fan, they might do the job, too.

I think progunner made a good pint above, provided that your local courts allow you to act thet way.

For those who learn from the movies: The scenario reminds me of Travis Bilcke's (Robert de Noro) first action in Taxi Driver.

Stay safe.
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Old May 29, 2005, 10:57 AM   #113
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Wow. This is an emotionally charged issue. Where to start? I agree Denny Hansen was right in saying there are too many variables to say yes or no.

But these AREN'T factors, if you ask me:

Maybe the cashier and robber are in it together.

So?

Maybe there is other suspects around.

Shoot them too.

Maybe the gun is fake.

So?

Maybe the gun isnt loaded.

So?

I don't have any way of telling if the gun is fake or unloaded. I'm not a psychiatrist and the guy's not giving me six months of psychoanalysis to figure out whether he really means it or not.

Am I going to get sued? Probably. Am I putting money over life if I decide I won't shoot no matter what? I think so. Does that make me any better than the bad guy? Maybe not.

These are the variables, if you ask me:

Can I get a shot off without getting myself shot?

Can I shoot him without shooting someone else? Consider overpenetration and misses.

Can I shoot him without him shooting the cashier by accident?

IF I have a clear shot, IF the bad guy doesn't see me, IF he moves the gun away from the clerk for a half a second, I would shoot. If not, I would have no choice but to watch the clerk die, if the bad guy wanted to kill him.
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Old May 30, 2005, 08:16 AM   #114
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Very good thread, but after reading most of what has been written I have just one question that I haven't seen asked or maybe I missed it. Why knowing that this place has been robbed 3 times in the past would you want to frequent the establishment. I believe the whole purpose of CC is to protect yourself from situations that could happen due to no fault of your own. Avoiding places that have become problem area's seems the best course of action. If in the scenario you take out the 3 previous robberies or the knowledge of the robberies then its a different scenario. Just because I have a CCL doesn't mean I should forget to use my brain or judgement. Having a CCL sometimes causes people to go to places they normally wouldn't go to due to over confidence. The question here really should be would you have entered that same restraunt knowing it had been robbed 3 times before unarmed? If you wouldn't do it unarmed then you shouldn't do it armed. Avoid the situation at all costs if possible. I know that some of you will say well I have a right to eat where I want, and that is your right. I wouldn't drive my car into a known area of carjackings just because I can carry my weapon and maybe stop it from happening if they choose me. I would avoid the known area. Part of having a CCL is using good judgement. It is for the unexpected. I just think a good rule of thumb is, if you wouldn't do it unarmed don't do it armed!
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Old May 30, 2005, 10:12 AM   #115
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xnavy,

What are you doing on here? did you get lost or something? you make far too much sense! A normal, non-paranoid gun owner, rational as all get out! Clone yourself, the sport needs more of you.
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Old May 30, 2005, 10:19 AM   #116
wayneinFL
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Quote:
This seems a very realistic and possible scenario to me. I frequent the pizza inn just down the road from work. It's been hit probably 3 times in the past two years.
I think the original poster is just trying to say it could happen, even though it's unlikely. It doesn't sound like he's scared to go in the door unarmed.

3 times in 2 years. You still have like a one in a million chance of walking in there during the course of a robbery. Hang on, let me get out the calculator.... If the place is open noon to midnight, which is about normal around here, if a robbery lasts 5 minutes, you have a 1 in 908,544 chance of walking in in the middle of a robbery. Okay, not quite one in a million, but close enough.

You're going to boycott the place? I couldn't do that to the guys across the road from me. Not only could I not do that to them, it just sounds a little paranoid.

I wouldn't be afraid to go in there unarmed, but since I go armed everywhere else I would go in there armed, too.

Besides, I'm sure there are cities in this country where you couldn't find a pizza place (or grocery store for that matter) that hasn't been robbed before. Unless, you can farm in your apartment, you'd have to move or starve.

Not that moving isn't a real possibility. But some people can't afford it. The roach coach guy was robbed at gunpoint in our parking lot at work. Last year, a couple of our guys were robbed at gunpoint at a jobsite. There have been guys in car accidents, too. So, I still come to work, even though there is a small chance I could be hurt. I'm not going to quit my job. I can't find a better job here in our town. Why should I let scumbags like that scare me off, and let my family suffer for it? I have four kids and my wife all depending on one income to survive, and I'm not going to let the bad guys win.
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Old May 30, 2005, 11:08 AM   #117
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You have taken what I said out of content. There is a differance between being "scared" and making a well informed rational judgement on a place to frequent. Work is a necessity, you really don't have much choice. Eating pizza is a luxury that you really don't have to have. Once again this is not about male ego, its about making a rational decision to avoid confrontation, not seek it out. IMHO the best scenario is to avoid a place that you have KNOWLEDGE of having been robbed 3 times with a very good possibility of a 4th happening. Just remember its your life, you are legally responsible for every bullet that comes out of that gun from a criminal and civil standpoint. I think that being "scared" as you put it, and using good judgement are two entirely different things. If I was a black belt in karate does that mean I should walk down the street in a gang filled neighborhood just to show I am not scared? Having been granted a CCL you have a great deal of responsibilty to use good judgement. In his scenario the place would be getting robbed for the 4th time. If he had used good judgement and avoided the place since it had been robbed 3 previous times, he wouldn't be in the situation in the scenario. You quote the odds of it happening, but the way I read the post he is already figuring the chance for a 4th robbery is pretty good hence the scenario he proposed. Solution avoid the restraunt and learn to eat frozen pizza if its the only pizza place or drive farther away.
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Old May 30, 2005, 11:20 AM   #118
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Well i couldnt have my cc on me at my pizza hut because they serve alcoholic beverages.
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Old May 30, 2005, 03:23 PM   #119
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Just leave your gun at home, you'll feel better? Is that what we are talking about? Question. Why should we avoid certain places and let the bad guys have them? If I go to a store frequently, should I stop going once it is robbed more than once? Why should I have to drive a mile out of the way when it is a perfectly good store to go to, except for an occasional robbery? Why should I move to the suburbs just because a gang shot the neighbors next door? Why should I have to move far into the country because of the high crime in the city? Why? What is CC for if it is not also a deterent for crime?
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Old May 30, 2005, 06:57 PM   #120
xnavy
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Sorry where in my posts did I say anything about that leaving your gun at home.

You are not a LEO. I mean really do I have to explain to you what good judgement is. Its not your job to go around and make places safe just because you have a CCW. Nor is it good judgement to go hang out in bad area's just because you have a CCW to stroke your male ego.


It seems that you want to make this an argument of extremes. Your home and place of work are necessities. Going to a store that gets robbed is a luxory, you have a choice. If I lived in a high crime area, I can say beyound a shadow of a doubt that I would move when circumstances warranted the move to help protect my family. You seem to miss the point of this thread. The original poster knows the place has been robbed and is anticipating a 4th robbery to happen, why put your self in a situation when it can be avoided? Again read the post there is no gaureentee that you will survive the scenario. Maybe another CCW holder thinks you are the bad guy and gets a drop on you. Avoiding getting into a bad situation is really the only safe recourse. CCL are meant for protecting life when no other option is available. Taking a life is to be the last option. I am not saying you have to avoid these places, that is a decision only you can make. What I am saying is this, you have to live with your actions right or wrong. This may involve criminal charges and it may include a civil suit.

To quote a movie line " With great power comes great responsibility". We must do what we must do. Things happen in this world that sometimes we have no control over. Enough bad things can happen to us, we don't need to help increase the odds by being in an area where known problems happen. Again I would have to ask would you drive your car home taking a shortcut to save 15 minutes drive time through a known carjacking area just because you have a CCW because the bad guys shouldn't be allowed to intimidate you? Would you go hang out at a local bar that has a reputation for selling drugs? Would you go hang out a bar that had frequent fights and stabbings? Of course the last two questions have to be answered without your ability to CCW because they derive more than 51% of sales from alcohol ( thats texas law anyway).

A CCL is not a liscense to go where ever you want just because it gives you a false sense of security.

I knew when I answered the post that thier would be many who would disagree and thats ok and I respect your opinions. I really don't know how to explain this any better. Having a CCL is not supposed to replace having good judgement and rationale, it should go hand in hand with it.
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Old May 30, 2005, 09:54 PM   #121
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I see all you points as valid. Crime just does not happen in the bad areas any more. It happens all around us. My kid just had his Wal-mart special bicylce stolen. We live in a "good" neighborhood. The local gas station was just robbed here a few weeks ago. The very day I was in to get finger-printed for my CCP, a local contractor's truck was stolen in broad daylight right behing the stinking police station...the very hour when the Captain was finger printing me. I live in a "good" area.

So, while I understand the circumstances of the fist post, I also understand that if we a citizens do not stand our ground and say no, these guys will continue to do what they want. Do you know what the coolest crime is now???? It is home invasion robbery...robbing anything as well as the virginity of our daughters....just for a thrill. The next hottest thing in our area next to that is robbing banks.

I understand what you say and agree with you up to a point. LEOs are our friends but they can't be everywhere. I'm not a hyper wacked person. I just don't want these BG doing whatever they went when they want and where ever they want.

Not trying to argue...but just stating it the way I see it.

You, know, if we stop going to Pizza places because they get robbed and because they are a luxury, the bad guys will come find us because that is where the money is. I say we go where we want to freely and if we just so happen to bump into a bad guy with a gun then we deal with that when it comes up.
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Old May 30, 2005, 10:13 PM   #122
xnavy
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Hummersander,

I agree with you totally, we can't let the BG's rule the world. Home invasion is a different scenario all together, you must defend your home and family. I know crime doesn't just happen in the bad area's anymore and thats why CCW is important. All I was just trying to point out is that if you are anticipating a 4th robbery happening at this particular pizza hut, aren't you just better off having dinner somewhere else? Is that pizza really worth risking your life over? Is someone elses few dollars worth risking your life over? Thats really all I am saying. I just think that if you are anticipating a 4th robbery my suggestion would be to avoid the place. Its unfortunate that some individuals seem to let carrying a concealed weapon instill a false confidence that could get them and others killed. Civil suits are no joking matter.

IMHO if the original poster thinks a 4th attempt is going to be made to rob the pizza hut, why would you want to eat there? IMHO you are seeking out trouble instead of trying to avoid it. Again I think CCW can lead one into a false sense of security and a lack of good sound judgement, but that is just my opinion.
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Old May 30, 2005, 10:41 PM   #123
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xnavy, I didn't mean to take what you said out of context.

Quote:
Eating pizza is a luxury that you really don't have to have.
I suppose not. But ask the two brothers who run the pizza place across the road from me- they might think it was more of a neccessity, it being their livelihood and all. They haven't been robbed, but if they had the misfortune of being robbed I wouldn't take any of my business from them. Of course, if they got robbed every Tuesday, maybe I'd get delivery or make Tuesday taco night.

BTW, I respect your opinion and the other dissenting opinions here. I think we're talking about a question of degree, more than anything. In my case- I can't speak for others- carrying a sidearm is not a "macho" thing. I don't go looking for trouble.

Let me put it this way. New scenario. I took a course on CPR years ago. Probably about time to take a refresher course, but I could handle it. I'll probably never have to use it. I don't walk around the grocery store hoping some old guy will collapse in front of me in line. That's my worst nightmare.

I'm not a LEO. Duh. I couldn't afford the pay cut. I'm not a paramedic, either. Someone drops in front of me in line at Winn-Dixie, you could say it's none of my business. True. I have no legal duty to help anybody. True. I could get sued if I help. True. I could be held accountable for every broken rib. True. I could step right over the dying SOB, and take my food out to the car. True.

CPR will never save ME, like CCW might. Why even take the CPR course? To be a good neighbor. I have to think it probably won't but could happen, so I prepare myself for it. Being prepared to help a loved one or even a stranger who has loved ones at home, isn't trying to be a hero, or macho, it's being a good neighbor. Being prepared to save yourself- that's just survival instinct that every being comes with out of the factory.

Again, I think we're talking about degree.

Five degrees that I see here:

1. There's the guy walking around every day looking for trouble, poised to blow someone away. This guy is crazy as hell. These guys are rare, I trust, on this forum.

2. There's the guy who carries into the aforementioned place thinking it may be robbed.

3. There's the guy who carries everywhere. Because "One more gun couldn't hurt, right?" He thinks the pizza place is no more dangerous than the fast-moving highway in front of it.

4. There's the guy who won't carry into the aforementioned pizza place 'cause he thinks "it would never happen to me".

5. Then there's the guy paranoid enough to think the pizza place in the original post is too dangerous and will avoid it like the plague. I think he's as crazy as the guy in #1. Fortunately, these guys are rare, too.

xnavy, I really don't think you are in category 1 or 5, so I don't think we are far from agreeing, and as long as you are a pro-gun gunowner I consider you a friend.

Quote:
Clone yourself, the sport needs more of you.
Pythonguy, with all due respect, I don't think of the defensive use of the pistol as a "sport". We're not talking about paper targets, we're talking about people's lives.
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Old May 31, 2005, 06:40 AM   #124
xnavy
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Wayne,

I do respect your opinion and like I said, everyone has to be accountable for thier own actions. I consider all CCL owners brothers in arms. The only thing I am trying to get across is be careful what you wish for it may happen. Like I said the original poster is already anticipating a 4th robbery and yet he still wants to have dinner knowing that the chances are good it will get robbed again. Its not paranoid to think the place is dangerous when its been robbed 3 times and the poster is already anticipating a 4th robbery. Maybe the pizza place is in a high crime area, that wasn't addressed in his post. I carry to protect myself and my family and if the situation calls for it to protect innoncent life. With this in mind I still will use good judgement about where I take my family. I won't take my family somewhere where there has been repeated robberies, it doesn't make good sense IMHO.

P.S. I am not sure I would categorize CPR and CCW as the same. One is strictly used to save life presenting no danger to others. The other can be used to take life either BG's or Innoncents depending on your training and skills.

Its ok for us to disagree, thats what makes america wonderful.
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Old May 31, 2005, 06:46 AM   #125
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All this physiology has me confused...Bad guy holding up some place and probably going to shoot an unarmed person and or persons ?? Possible will not want to leave any witnesses.....Glock 20C--center body only to alleviate the threat---Bang, bang, have a nice day.........
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