Another Scenario. What Would You Do?

[InToItTRX]

Something similar to this just happened to me this Monday. I was driving along a road, and this car comes up very quickly behind me, and starts to tailgate me, I am in the right lane heading north bound on this road at a speed of 50mph in a 45mph zone, he has two other lanes in which he can use to pass me but he does not. So I continue driving for a while, and it becomes obvious that he is now just following me, so I quickly turn into a parking lot and he still follows, I come to a dead end in this parking lot, and his car quickly blocks my only exit, he starts screaming at me to get out of my car because he is going to **** me up, I did not even look in his direction, so he continues to scream at me, I look over a few seconds later and find him out of his car approaching my car, at this point I pull my Walther PPK out of my pocket and keep it close to my chest pointing up, when he looked in and saw the gun he ran back to his car and got the hell out of the parking lot very quickly tires screaming on the way out.

I immediately called the police to file a report, telling them I had a CCW permit and everything that took place. The police felt I did not do anything wrong at all, and just took down my name and phone number, they told me I would not hear anything from them unless the other gentlemen also filed a report.

[Dwight55]

Thank you Smokiniron, . . .

I just wish you could have given that advice to a young father of 3 in Columbus, Ohio last weekend.

He cut off an older SUV full of hot headed perverts that chased him down, and goaded one to get out and stab him, I think 9 times. Needless to say, his wife is now a widow.

Moral: stay in the car and get to where you can get help (police station preferably).

May God bless,
Dwight

[Para Bellum]

"are you talkin' to me?"



I thought myself about using this nikname. Good choice.

[chris in va]

This happened to me 3 years ago. I had some nice Hella driving lights on my (then) Audi and thought I would use them all the time since the stock lights were junk.

Well. A nerdy dude in a Tempo got pissed off with them in his rearview and thought he would match my speed/cornering as I drove home, so I called the cops and told them to meet me at a specific place to 'confront' this jackass.

The three of us got out and worked through the situation peacefully enough. I of course had to put covers on the 500's...

[modelo]

i posted a very similar experience on the M-1911 forum not long ago, and i got some interesting responses. (thread titled "your self-defense experiences") my problem started out on a highway in a rural area, no idea what i did to piss the punk off, but he was on my tail or slowing down in front of me for over 20 miles. i did not have a gun then, and my concern was that he was gonna follow me all the way back to work, and then___? i even faked using my cell phone hoping to scare him into thinking i was callin the law, but he didn't go for that.
i finally waited til he was a few car lengths in front and pulled off on the shoulder myself and really did make the call. mr. punk also pulled off on the shoulder about 75 yds ahead, and apparently figured out i was calling the law for real and bugged out. the dispatcher IDed the vehicle and said they would pay the owner a visit. (if punko had come back toward me after i'd pulled off, not exactly sure what i'd have done, but being 75 yds back i did have options...)

travis: you would have been in a LOT of potential trouble if you had gotten out and aimed a gun. at that point in your scenario, BG is a few car lengths away and stopped, or nearby and still moving, but either way, he's at most guilty of reckless driving/road rage which, while an offense, is not as serious as assault with a deadly weapon, of which you're clearly guilty in that scenario. (assault just means putting the other guy in fear of his life, regardless of your actual intentions.) please understand i have great sympathy for you having been there myself, and my experience of several years back is one of the prime reasons i finally got a CCW permit and keep a gun in my car. i also have zero sympathy for that jerk you had to deal with, but the last thing you want to do is give a nut like that a real legal advantage over you.
unlike two of the responding posters, my phone worked and completely resolved the situation. another thing i now do is carry defense grade pepper spray, the kind that puts out a stream up to 25 feet. there are a lot of bad scenarios that might call for that as a solution, and as a buddy of mine likes to say, you can go "oops" with pepper spray but not with a .45 JHP slug.

stay safe and thanks for starting this interesting thread.--mike

[Travis Bickle]

Thanks, everybody, for the very insightful replies. Hopefully I won't be in another situation like that.

I do have to say, in my self defense, that I did not say I WOULD exit my car and point my piece at the SOB, only that 'I would have been tempted':

I have to admit, I may have been sorely tempted to open a window, stop, hop out and take an attack stance with my revolver behind my car door

Still, all in all, I have been properly chastised for even considering such a foolish move. I feel like a total jackass for having thought that and admitted that, and have had to think about my mindset alot and am glad I brought up the subject.

I had said that I had an idea about what I should have done, and I think someone else came close to it. I should have just stopped. The guy wasn't ramming me, and if I had stopped, he gets out of his car, and I just pull away. He chases me again, well, as the shampoo bottle says, "Lather, rinse, repeat." Although now, after more thought and reading these, I think going slow, honking and flashing the lights is a better option.

Thanks, again.

[Whiskey Tango]

I had an agry guy following me one time as a senior in HS.

In the good old state of Florida (since I am not 21 to get a CCW Permit), I am legally allowed to have my firearm in my truck, securely encased, and so it is. It's holstered into a snap retention holster that was sewn into my seat, and when I leave the truck, it goes into a locked tailgate toolbox unloaded with locks on the gun itself also.

This elderly guy, full white head of hair and his wife were driving an 86-ish Ford Econoline following a few cars behind me through a school zone. I am anal about defensive driving, and do my best to better my driving habits. And since the last week had speed traps in the school zone, I was doing 15 per the School Speed limit sign.

This guy went nuts, he crossed the solid yellow line, sped up towards on coming traffic to yell at me, and before it was too late he merged into my lane to avoid a head on collision, to avoid him, I went off the road with my truck.

I got back on the road, and he got behind me again. I made a left at a stop sign, he followed me, and layed into his horn. He did the same thing again, ran me off the road. I was a bit nervous with adrenaline, and had NO THOUGHT OF PULLING MY GUN. I tried for about 30 minutes to lose this guy, and just kept following me, and I don't have a cell phone.

I had enough eventually, and decided to go home and let him follow me. I gunned it down a side road, he kept pace, and I turned into my driveway, and pulled to the garage while it was opening. I figured the dude would drive off, but he came to my driveway, got out and proceded to my house.

While he was doing that, my Bushmaster was being loaded with a 30 rounder. Before he got to my house, I exited my house armed out the back, while my girlfriend called the police and gave a description of me. He kept banging on my door non stop, and I snuck around the house and told him to turn around. I was at a vantage point where had his wife in the truck pull a gun, I could easily neutralize her to save my life, but as soon as I had walked around to tell the guy to leave, his wife as she saw my rifle, got out of the van, and laid on the ground face down. The guy decided to put his hands in the air, and I walked him over to his van at point to wait for the police.

I was pretty proud of how I handled myself, kept my cool, and didn't do anything rash with a firearm. The arresting officer told me that what I did was legal, and told me I might want to invest in a cellular phone. Didn't want my rifle as evidence or anything.

My firearms are only to be used if I'm at a range, or if I feel my life or another's may be in danger, and I did when he approached my house.

[modelo]

i did understand that you had only contemplated the exit-draw-point thing, and i don't think you'd have done it. i've been in law practice for 18+ years now mostly defending civil lawsuits, and i just wanted to make sure you understood the legal implications of pointing a gun.
please don't be so hard on yourself. i don't think i'm alone in imagining myself drawing on that scumbag--even though i know better. i've also noticed something else in reading posts from guys who have posted about actual confrontations and then called the police afterwards to relate all that occurred: 1)the LEOs usually don't criticize guys who draw a bit quicker than the civil and criminal laws technically allow if the BG is provocative enough and 2)the BG almost always gets a quick dose of "reality" when he decides to pick on someone who carries, and that may do him--and everyone else--more good than harm in the long run.
i really appreciate both your post and especially your honesty. we can't spend too much time talking about stuff exactly like this.

[Capt. Charlie]

Actually, it depends on what state you're in regarding an assault charge. In Ohio, pointing a firearm is only aggravated menacing, a misdemeanor 1st. Where a firearm's concerned, it becomes a felony 2nd if a person did "cause or attempt to cause serious physical harm by means of a deadly weapon or dangerous ordinance" (Ohio Revised Code Sec. 2903.11 - Felonious assault). I lost a case some years ago in which hubby shot a 12 gauge over his wife's head. The shot was close. I charged him with felonious assault, but the defense successfully argued that he only intended to scare her and did not try to inflict "serious physical harm".

Situations like the one's described here (including mine) are fluid, dynamic from split second to split second. One small factor in that split second can change the "proper response" from flight to fight. You can only make your decisions based on the information you have at the time. Remember that a key ingredient in the "self defense" defense, is that you have to have a reasonable "fear for your life". I'm sure juries have spend countless thousands of hours debating that one. The other thing that I'm surprised nobody has mentioned is that a motor vehicle can be a very lethal, 2-ton weapon. To say that a subject is unarmed when he has that 2-ton weapon inches from your bumper at 90 mph, and it's obvious that he means you ill in some form, is ludricrous. It most definitely was a factor in my decision to switch from flight to fight mode, especially given that I had kids on board. In my situation, I'm sure that road rage was not a factor. There were no other cars on the highway and these creeps came out of nowhere. I had to assume their intent was criminal, and since I had a brand new pickup, possibly car jacking. I also took into consideration that playing bumper tag, even at moderate speeds, is dangerous, and the longer it continues, the more dangerous it becomes. My stance with a weapon was defensive, but had they gone for the kids in the trees, I most definitely would have dropped them.

To those that think that the point/aim of a firearm is a use of force, I quote (then) US Atty General Janet Reno when a SWAT team member put the muzzle of an MP-5 in 8-yr. old Emelio Gonzoles' face some years ago: "That was not a use of force; that was a show of force".

[assassin]

i've been into worse situations before.. there's something you cannot change. no matter where you go, there will always be "a-holes" around. if he's menacing you, dont stop. just keep driving. and i know, as someone advised me, specially if you're carrying a loaded CCW, never get out of your car. it's always wise to stay inside the car, coz it can provide you more or less, protection from the menacing driver as compared to when you're walking towards him with no flack jacket on. inside the car, you can lock and load and wait if there's really a potential threat to your life.

[Edward429451]

To those that think that the point/aim of a firearm is a use of force, I quote (then) US Atty General Janet Reno when a SWAT team member put the muzzle of an MP-5 in 8-yr. old Emelio Gonzoles' face some years ago: "That was not a use of force; that was a show of force".

But for us it's be assault or menacing or brandishing. That ol double standard strikes again. I have that Elian pic on my wall in my reloading room. It's so clear from the pic that the gubmint was there to help.

[taralon]

Eh, depends on where you are really. Busy city street with traffic lights, highway, interstate in a semi-busy area? Move to the far lefthand lane, and while traffic is moving simply pull over as far left (without exiting as you can) and stop as if a cop is pulling you over. Wait until the man exits his car, gets even with your rear quarter panel, and well, drive off. In order to continue to pursue you, he has to 1) get back in his car, 2) get yelled at by everyone behind him, and 3) catch back up with you, and FYI I've never had anyone continue their road raging after I did this, and I've done so multiple times in many different cities. Call the cops report the incident and go on with your life. Mainly because if a person is going to attack you because of a road rage incident they will do it when you are out of your vehicle (so never exit it) or they will wait until they are even with you to pull a weapon/try to break your window. But never stop unless there is some form of assistance nearby. Government buildings, hospitals, airports, and police stations are the only places I would actually ever stop and get out of my vehicle.

[LAK]

This guy may have mistaken you for someone cheating with his wife, girlfriend, owing him a large unpaid debt or any other reason. You do not want to pull up and confront him; he may just run up and stab you to death and drive off in his (pehaps stolen) car in front of your onlooking audience.

Try and get a license number, note his description, and the car, color, identifying stickers etc. Try and find a police station or police car. Hospital ER (many have peace officers or private security), fire department.

If you have no phone - find one. Any building or place with a manned controlled access gate. A bank drive-through, any fast food drive-through etc. When you pull up to the window if the guy is still behind you ask the teller or whoever is serving that the guy is chasing you, you don't know why, and you think he's dangerous - please call the police right away. Ask them to describe the car behind you and driver to the police on the phone.

If he get's wise at that point and pulls out to leave, make sure you get his license number. You want to make sure a report is made in case this nut comes back to haunt you. If he does and can be linked - he already has a "history" as it were and you have a chance at maintaining the status quo of who is the goodguy and who is the badguy.

If you are armed; same thing. Unless he get's out at a light or somewhere and boxes you in, has a weapon, or gives you any other justification for deadly force things are different.

[crashresidue]

Cheers people,

I'm not here to "stir the pot" - I just want to approach this from an agressive point of view. Feel free to "flame".

OK, you got his license plate number - you don't think he's GOT yours?

There's a 50's era Willis truck on lsland that I REALLY want to buy. So, I went to the DMV and with a LOT of smiles, talked to the clerk, telling her/him just how much I wanted to buy this vehicle. I described it, license number, old man driving it, the town he turned off to reach - offered my drivers license for documentation and SURPISE - they gave me not only his phone number, but his address!!! They didn't even record my drivers license.

You got a "road rage" person after you - he can get anything he wants from your local government! You are NOT safe! He can get your address, your work - anything the "www.local gov." has on file - just by being "nice" to the clerks!

A two ton vehicle is a WEAPON! It's not transportation, it's NOT a status symble - it's a WEAPON! Approach the situation with this in mind! Force equals mass times velocity times velocity. Do the MATH.

"Sorry Sir, he didn't have a weapon." - Like H*ll - he had 2,000 pounds of steel traveling at 88+ feet per second - and you want to tell me "he" was unarmed?

Oh, get paint on your vehicle - makes nice evidence.

I'll go with the well lighted area and people, if available - but "back off" - no way!

Take this dude OUT. If you don't, he may come back to haunt you. Is this something you want to sleep with for a couple of years? Or have to worry about your family's safety?

If there is "reincarnation" - I was a "gun-fighter' in one of my lives. STOP the threat NOW! Don't back away - it'll come back to bite you!

I was raised with Mother telling me over and over - "Violence NEVER solves anything!" Mom LIED! I learned that in Nam, and I've seen enough since - to believe that I'm right and SHE'S wrong!

"But, I dont' want to see a gunfight on an LA freeway." - Why the H*ll NOT - you see them every where else in LA!

OK, "rant" off. Everyone else here wants to defuse the situation - I want it ended. I don't want to be looking over my shoulder, for years, and worrying. Stop it NOW. DEAD dude = stopped!

cr