#11 caps vs Musket Caps

hometheaterman · October 27, 2009, 09:36 PM

So you probably have read my other thread where I'm having problems now that I didn't use to have about getting my #11 caps to go off. The first hit seems to just push them on further. You have to re cock it and re shoot before they go off. My buddy is telling me how #11 caps are probably the problem which I'm not sure I disagree with. He told me I should go get the musket cap nipple and some musket caps. That they are much much better and will probably go off. Is this worth trying? Are they really better or is there a downside to them?

Just wondering if that might fix my problem or if I should stick with #11 caps.

n5lyc · October 27, 2009, 10:03 PM

I have both, for my rifles, I hunt with musket nipples to make sure i have a good ignition. and when i shoot target work, with a lot of reloading (woods walks ) i use #11's with a capper, easier to handle & load quick)

Not that i have any problems with making them go bang with #11's, but the musket caps are a little larger & easier to handle with cold fingers..
and the extra fire don't hurt.

the musket nipples provide more fire & do not tend to split like the #11's
you can get musket nipples for CVA, and Thompson center & others. (about $8 on ebay).

Ian

davem · October 27, 2009, 10:23 PM

Howdy, it's Davem again from the other thread. From what you said about the bolt I am assuming you have an in-line. If so and if 209 primers are legal in your state- get a breech plug for them if available. The second choice is the musket caps. If you must use the #11 nipple, there are some nipples designed to provide a hotter flame to the charge. Also, it isn't that uncommon for a nipple to get beat up after a while and require replacement. If those Remington caps were working for you then stick with them. The #11 should be okay if you are using real black powder. If you are using Pyrodex, etc- then I'd go with the musket cap or the 209.

B.L.E. · October 27, 2009, 10:27 PM

If your gun's hammer or striker is not setting off #11 caps everytime, going to a musket nipple is not going to fix your problem.
You may have a mushroomed nipple that doesn't allow you to fully seat the caps. Your mainspring may be weak. There may be so much powder fouling in the lockwork that it causes a sluggish hammer fall.

A properly functioning rifle should make a #11 go bang every time.

hometheaterman · October 27, 2009, 10:48 PM

Yes it's not striking and setting off the #11 caps. It's like the first hit will seat them and the second hit will set them off. Is this a week spring? I'm hoping not as I'm not sure I will be able to find one fast enough to get it ready by this weekend. I talked to a few other guys that said they doubt the spring would be weak but I don't know. I know it does hit very very hard. I put a folded up piece of sandpaper in between the nipple and the hammer and it punched a hole right through it no problem. Seems like it hits hard. It's super clean and the nipple is new so I don't think build up is the problem.

For the 209 conversion I wouldn't mind doing that but can't find which kit to get and I need one I can get locally so I can hunt with it soon. So that's why I'm thinking musket caps or #11 caps. I'm using Pyrodex pellets.

arcticap · October 27, 2009, 11:46 PM

I read the other thread and think that the problem is that the Winchester caps run smaller and are too tight for your nipple.
The Winchester caps are rebranded CCI's so switching to CCI's probably won't help.
Since the few Remington caps that you tried worked on the first try each time, it reveals that your spring is okay and that Remingtons fit better.
Why not just switch to Remington caps?
You can also adjust the diameter of the nipple cone by carefully sanding it down to get the Winchesters to fit better. But then you'll be stuck using Winchester/CCI all of the time since the other brands may then slip off the nipple.
There's nothing wrong with trying out a musket nipple & musket caps either. It's mostly just a matter of testing them out to see how they work.

Pahoo · October 28, 2009, 10:04 AM

Quote:

My buddy is telling me how #11 caps are probably the problem which I'm not sure I disagree with. He told me I should go get the musket cap nipple and some musket caps.

Gees, I like the way your buddy thinks as all my In-Line hunters are converted to the Musket Primer. As others have mentioned, the problem is in the #11 nipple fit. You can say that the problem is in the #11 cap or the nipple and you would be right. Recently one our teaching side-lock CVA,s, I had to replace the nipple and from past experience, I knew that I might get into the same problem you are having. Was not disappointed and after polishing the cone section a bit, let it go. The problem has not entirely gone away but great opertunity to use it as a teaching aid. Between groups, we definitely have to clean the cone or seating areas. There are many advantages to converting to a Musket Primer. .....

Be Safe !!!

Beartrak · October 28, 2009, 05:28 PM

I started using Rem #11 caps when I started shooting black powder. Some years later, unable to locate Remington caps, I fell for a can of CCI #11 caps.
I had a particularly tough time both seating the CCI caps and removing them after firing! More than once, I have used my pocket knife to literally "scrape" a mushroomed, unfired CCI cap from a pristine nipple. After a CCI cap caused me to miss shooting a deer, I uncerimoniously (sp) 'planted' them in the wheat field adjacent to my stand and have never purchased anything other than Remington since.
Good advice!
Be certain "dry firing" hasn't "mushroomed" nipple to the point that the Remington can't be seated.
Be absolutely certain cap is firmly seated on nipple.
New nipples are cheap!

hometheaterman · October 28, 2009, 10:24 PM

I got this thing fixed. I went to another gun shop tonight that's more of a repair shop and reloading supplies. He said he didn't have a spring for a Marlin. Then I asked about the T/C springs. He told me he had one and went to get it. It was actually quite a bit longer. Maybe 1/2"-1" longer. However, it seemed to be the same size other than longer. We put it in and tried it and it shoots the caps great. A little hard to pull the handle back to cock it now due to the stronger spring but it shoots great.

Are there any downsides to using a longer stronger spring? I mean it slams closed now. I'm thinking the nipple may wear out faster but as long as it lasts a year or so at a time I'd be fine as long as it goes off. It seems to go off every time now.

B.L.E. · October 29, 2009, 05:30 AM

Quote:

Are there any downsides to using a longer stronger spring? I mean it slams closed now. I'm thinking the nipple may wear out faster but as long as it lasts a year or so at a time I'd be fine as long as it goes off. It seems to go off every time now.

As far as I know, you may mushroom the nipple sooner and a stiffer mainspring also increases the trigger pull unless your gun uses a set trigger.

hometheaterman · October 29, 2009, 08:53 AM

Not sure if it increased the trigger pull or not however the trigger still feels fine to me. I'm not sure if this gun has had the trigger worked on or not but to me I really like the trigger on it. Not so light to where you barely touch it it goes off like some of my buddies guns. However, it's also not too heavy. Seems just about right for me.

As far as mushrooming the nipple I thought about that also and kind of thought it might do that. However, the last one has lasted me 2 years and who knows how old it was before that. If the nipples last a year or so of moderate shooting I'd be 100% happy with it as it would be worth it to not have to worry if it's going to go off or not.

I just wanted to make sure it wasn't going to mess up anything major but I don't really see how it could.

grubbylabs · October 29, 2009, 10:43 AM

the shop I bought my stuff at just sold me some Vorderlader- Zundhutchen they say No. 1075 PLUS Dynamit Nobel. Is pretty much all that is wwritten on the container cap. I was having problems with the CCI #11 caps firing as well. I have not had a chance to fire one of these but I will let you all know how they work.

Any one ever use these or know any thing about them?

B.L.E. · October 29, 2009, 12:21 PM

Quote:

the shop I bought my stuff at just sold me some Vorderlader- Zundhutchen they say No. 1075 PLUS Dynamit Nobel. Is pretty much all that is wwritten on the container cap. I was having problems with the CCI #11 caps firing as well. I have not had a chance to fire one of these but I will let you all know how they work.

Any one ever use these or know any thing about them?

They are OK. I have a bunch of them too but I prefer CCI when I'm shooting muzzleloading trap and I positively don't want any failure to fires.
These caps are also sold as RWS I believe.

Vorderlader Zundhutchen is German for frontloader percussion cap. The "V" in German is pronounced like the "F" in English.

arcticap · October 30, 2009, 12:01 AM

The pressure produced by the old spring could be increased by stretching it to lengthen it a little bit. Not enough to distort it so that it won't fit but just enough to lengthen it.
And conversely, the new spring can be cut and shortened a little bit to weaken its return strength.
It appears that Numrich Arms sells the Marlin cocking handle return spring but maybe you'll be happier with the stronger and more reliable TC spring.

http://www.e-gunparts.com/products_new.asp?CatID=11798

hometheaterman · November 2, 2009, 08:53 PM

Well, I thought the spring fixed it but I guess not. I shot probably 6-10 caps through it and it did fine. Then I loaded it and shot 3 times without cleaning it fine. Then on the 4th shot it started doing it again. You kept having to shhot twice. I took it and cleaned it since it was pretty dirty by that time. After cleaning it I shot probably 6 or 7 caps throgh it and all but one worked. It's also been rainy and damp so I'm not sure if that made a difference. So what else could it be? I'm at a loss. It seems to work a lot better but not 100%. Would it being dirty after several shots be the cause of this?

hometheaterman · November 2, 2009, 08:55 PM

BTW does anyone know what 209 conversion kit I need to use for this rifle? I'd really like to ditch the caps and go to a 209 system.

arcticap · November 2, 2009, 10:00 PM

Have you done any more tests to see if the Remington caps solve the problem?
I don't know if there is a "direct" 209 conversion for the Marlin. There's a possibility that the TC Black Diamond musket cap nipple will work.
But when it comes to converting to the 209 I don't know if the available TC conversion units will fit or work or not.

The Marlin has an ambidextrous bolt and I don't think that any of the other TC rifles do or if that matters.
A new striker may be needed.

There's 2 conversion kits for the Firehawk and Thunderhawk and System 1. Coincidently the scope base for the Marlin is the same as the Firehawk and Thunderhawk, but that doesn't mean that the bolt would fit.
Also, the Black Diamond has a 3 nipple system but I don't know if they all use the same striker.

I would try the Remington caps and try to adjust the taper of the #11 nipple if necessary.
Then I would try the musket nipple next.
Only if those attempts don't work would I try to install a 209 conversion. That is unless I were more certain that it would fit.

Musket nipple:

https://secure.tcarms.com/store/flam...t-no-7237.html

209 Primer adaptor:

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=686477

Conversion units for TC guns:

https://secure.tcarms.com/store/flam...t-no-7776.html

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct...tnumber=320263

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=817982

hometheaterman · November 3, 2009, 01:13 PM

I haven't tried anymore Remington caps. Reason being I can't find them. I got the at WalMart a few years ago but WalMart only has Winchesters now and the gun shops I've been to and checked either are sold out of all caps or have CCI's.

As for the musket cap I know the part number of the musket cap nipple I need however I don't know about the 209 conversion. I've just read a few people say they converted them to 209's with a kit Cabela's sold. However, these posts were all old ones I found by searching.

shikar1 · November 5, 2009, 08:28 PM

grubbylabs may have the answer for you, if you can find them: The Dynamint Nobel caps (Vorderlader) from Switzerland are the best, hottest burning caps I've used. More than once I've been at my club range and had the guy next to me misfiring with CCI caps. I give them a few of the Dynamint Nobels and the darn things never misfire on their guns.

I was on the US Muzzleloading Team for a number of years and we glommed as many of these caps (both #11 and musket caps) as we could get our hands on when we went to Europe. The US team even provided them to team members upon occasion.

grubbylabs · November 6, 2009, 05:05 PM

Just went out and tried those caps and they do seem to give it a bit more bang. I also took a file to the rim of the nipple and that also seems to have helped.

October 27, 2009, 10:03 PM	#2
n5lyc Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2009 Posts: 180	nipples I have both, for my rifles, I hunt with musket nipples to make sure i have a good ignition. and when i shoot target work, with a lot of reloading (woods walks ) i use #11's with a capper, easier to handle & load quick) Not that i have any problems with making them go bang with #11's, but the musket caps are a little larger & easier to handle with cold fingers.. and the extra fire don't hurt. the musket nipples provide more fire & do not tend to split like the #11's you can get musket nipples for CVA, and Thompson center & others. (about $8 on ebay). Ian

October 27, 2009, 11:46 PM	#6
arcticap Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2005 Location: Central Connecticut Posts: 3,166	I read the other thread and think that the problem is that the Winchester caps run smaller and are too tight for your nipple. The Winchester caps are rebranded CCI's so switching to CCI's probably won't help. Since the few Remington caps that you tried worked on the first try each time, it reveals that your spring is okay and that Remingtons fit better. Why not just switch to Remington caps? You can also adjust the diameter of the nipple cone by carefully sanding it down to get the Winchesters to fit better. But then you'll be stuck using Winchester/CCI all of the time since the other brands may then slip off the nipple. There's nothing wrong with trying out a musket nipple & musket caps either. It's mostly just a matter of testing them out to see how they work. Last edited by arcticap; October 27, 2009 at 11:58 PM.

November 2, 2009, 10:00 PM	#17
arcticap Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2005 Location: Central Connecticut Posts: 3,166	Have you done any more tests to see if the Remington caps solve the problem? I don't know if there is a "direct" 209 conversion for the Marlin. There's a possibility that the TC Black Diamond musket cap nipple will work. But when it comes to converting to the 209 I don't know if the available TC conversion units will fit or work or not. The Marlin has an ambidextrous bolt and I don't think that any of the other TC rifles do or if that matters. A new striker may be needed. There's 2 conversion kits for the Firehawk and Thunderhawk and System 1. Coincidently the scope base for the Marlin is the same as the Firehawk and Thunderhawk, but that doesn't mean that the bolt would fit. Also, the Black Diamond has a 3 nipple system but I don't know if they all use the same striker. I would try the Remington caps and try to adjust the taper of the #11 nipple if necessary. Then I would try the musket nipple next. Only if those attempts don't work would I try to install a 209 conversion. That is unless I were more certain that it would fit. Musket nipple: https://secure.tcarms.com/store/flam...t-no-7237.html 209 Primer adaptor: http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=686477 Conversion units for TC guns: https://secure.tcarms.com/store/flam...t-no-7776.html http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct...tnumber=320263 http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=817982 Last edited by arcticap; November 2, 2009 at 10:05 PM.

November 5, 2009, 08:28 PM	#19
shikar1 Junior Member Join Date: November 5, 2009 Location: new jersey Posts: 3	percussion caps grubbylabs may have the answer for you, if you can find them: The Dynamint Nobel caps (Vorderlader) from Switzerland are the best, hottest burning caps I've used. More than once I've been at my club range and had the guy next to me misfiring with CCI caps. I give them a few of the Dynamint Nobels and the darn things never misfire on their guns. I was on the US Muzzleloading Team for a number of years and we glommed as many of these caps (both #11 and musket caps) as we could get our hands on when we went to Europe. The US team even provided them to team members upon occasion.

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October 27, 2009, 09:36 PM	#1
hometheaterman Junior member Join Date: October 23, 2009 Posts: 382	#11 caps vs Musket Caps So you probably have read my other thread where I'm having problems now that I didn't use to have about getting my #11 caps to go off. The first hit seems to just push them on further. You have to re cock it and re shoot before they go off. My buddy is telling me how #11 caps are probably the problem which I'm not sure I disagree with. He told me I should go get the musket cap nipple and some musket caps. That they are much much better and will probably go off. Is this worth trying? Are they really better or is there a downside to them? Just wondering if that might fix my problem or if I should stick with #11 caps.

October 27, 2009, 10:23 PM	#3
davem Junior member Join Date: October 4, 2004 Posts: 458	Howdy, it's Davem again from the other thread. From what you said about the bolt I am assuming you have an in-line. If so and if 209 primers are legal in your state- get a breech plug for them if available. The second choice is the musket caps. If you must use the #11 nipple, there are some nipples designed to provide a hotter flame to the charge. Also, it isn't that uncommon for a nipple to get beat up after a while and require replacement. If those Remington caps were working for you then stick with them. The #11 should be okay if you are using real black powder. If you are using Pyrodex, etc- then I'd go with the musket cap or the 209.

October 27, 2009, 10:27 PM	#4
B.L.E. Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2008 Location: Somewhere on the Southern shore of Lake Travis, TX Posts: 2,603	If your gun's hammer or striker is not setting off #11 caps everytime, going to a musket nipple is not going to fix your problem. You may have a mushroomed nipple that doesn't allow you to fully seat the caps. Your mainspring may be weak. There may be so much powder fouling in the lockwork that it causes a sluggish hammer fall. A properly functioning rifle should make a #11 go bang every time.

October 27, 2009, 10:48 PM	#5
hometheaterman Junior member Join Date: October 23, 2009 Posts: 382	Yes it's not striking and setting off the #11 caps. It's like the first hit will seat them and the second hit will set them off. Is this a week spring? I'm hoping not as I'm not sure I will be able to find one fast enough to get it ready by this weekend. I talked to a few other guys that said they doubt the spring would be weak but I don't know. I know it does hit very very hard. I put a folded up piece of sandpaper in between the nipple and the hammer and it punched a hole right through it no problem. Seems like it hits hard. It's super clean and the nipple is new so I don't think build up is the problem. For the 209 conversion I wouldn't mind doing that but can't find which kit to get and I need one I can get locally so I can hunt with it soon. So that's why I'm thinking musket caps or #11 caps. I'm using Pyrodex pellets.

October 28, 2009, 05:28 PM	#8
Beartrak Member Join Date: October 19, 2009 Posts: 31	I started using Rem #11 caps when I started shooting black powder. Some years later, unable to locate Remington caps, I fell for a can of CCI #11 caps. I had a particularly tough time both seating the CCI caps and removing them after firing! More than once, I have used my pocket knife to literally "scrape" a mushroomed, unfired CCI cap from a pristine nipple. After a CCI cap caused me to miss shooting a deer, I uncerimoniously (sp) 'planted' them in the wheat field adjacent to my stand and have never purchased anything other than Remington since. Good advice! Be certain "dry firing" hasn't "mushroomed" nipple to the point that the Remington can't be seated. Be absolutely certain cap is firmly seated on nipple. New nipples are cheap!

October 28, 2009, 10:24 PM	#9
hometheaterman Junior member Join Date: October 23, 2009 Posts: 382	I got this thing fixed. I went to another gun shop tonight that's more of a repair shop and reloading supplies. He said he didn't have a spring for a Marlin. Then I asked about the T/C springs. He told me he had one and went to get it. It was actually quite a bit longer. Maybe 1/2"-1" longer. However, it seemed to be the same size other than longer. We put it in and tried it and it shoots the caps great. A little hard to pull the handle back to cock it now due to the stronger spring but it shoots great. Are there any downsides to using a longer stronger spring? I mean it slams closed now. I'm thinking the nipple may wear out faster but as long as it lasts a year or so at a time I'd be fine as long as it goes off. It seems to go off every time now.

October 29, 2009, 08:53 AM	#11
hometheaterman Junior member Join Date: October 23, 2009 Posts: 382	Not sure if it increased the trigger pull or not however the trigger still feels fine to me. I'm not sure if this gun has had the trigger worked on or not but to me I really like the trigger on it. Not so light to where you barely touch it it goes off like some of my buddies guns. However, it's also not too heavy. Seems just about right for me. As far as mushrooming the nipple I thought about that also and kind of thought it might do that. However, the last one has lasted me 2 years and who knows how old it was before that. If the nipples last a year or so of moderate shooting I'd be 100% happy with it as it would be worth it to not have to worry if it's going to go off or not. I just wanted to make sure it wasn't going to mess up anything major but I don't really see how it could.

October 29, 2009, 10:43 AM	#12
grubbylabs Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 2009 Location: Hansen Idaho Posts: 1,465	the shop I bought my stuff at just sold me some Vorderlader- Zundhutchen they say No. 1075 PLUS Dynamit Nobel. Is pretty much all that is wwritten on the container cap. I was having problems with the CCI #11 caps firing as well. I have not had a chance to fire one of these but I will let you all know how they work. Any one ever use these or know any thing about them?

October 30, 2009, 12:01 AM	#14
arcticap Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2005 Location: Central Connecticut Posts: 3,166	The pressure produced by the old spring could be increased by stretching it to lengthen it a little bit. Not enough to distort it so that it won't fit but just enough to lengthen it. And conversely, the new spring can be cut and shortened a little bit to weaken its return strength. It appears that Numrich Arms sells the Marlin cocking handle return spring but maybe you'll be happier with the stronger and more reliable TC spring. http://www.e-gunparts.com/products_new.asp?CatID=11798

November 2, 2009, 08:53 PM	#15
hometheaterman Junior member Join Date: October 23, 2009 Posts: 382	Well, I thought the spring fixed it but I guess not. I shot probably 6-10 caps through it and it did fine. Then I loaded it and shot 3 times without cleaning it fine. Then on the 4th shot it started doing it again. You kept having to shhot twice. I took it and cleaned it since it was pretty dirty by that time. After cleaning it I shot probably 6 or 7 caps throgh it and all but one worked. It's also been rainy and damp so I'm not sure if that made a difference. So what else could it be? I'm at a loss. It seems to work a lot better but not 100%. Would it being dirty after several shots be the cause of this?

November 2, 2009, 08:55 PM	#16
hometheaterman Junior member Join Date: October 23, 2009 Posts: 382	BTW does anyone know what 209 conversion kit I need to use for this rifle? I'd really like to ditch the caps and go to a 209 system.

November 3, 2009, 01:13 PM	#18
hometheaterman Junior member Join Date: October 23, 2009 Posts: 382	I haven't tried anymore Remington caps. Reason being I can't find them. I got the at WalMart a few years ago but WalMart only has Winchesters now and the gun shops I've been to and checked either are sold out of all caps or have CCI's. As for the musket cap I know the part number of the musket cap nipple I need however I don't know about the 209 conversion. I've just read a few people say they converted them to 209's with a kit Cabela's sold. However, these posts were all old ones I found by searching.

November 6, 2009, 05:05 PM	#20
grubbylabs Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 2009 Location: Hansen Idaho Posts: 1,465	Just went out and tried those caps and they do seem to give it a bit more bang. I also took a file to the rim of the nipple and that also seems to have helped.