Discard barrel after squibb load

HighValleyRanch · August 9, 2015, 11:17 AM

At a recent firearms class, the instructor made a remark that once one had a squibb load in a gun, the barrel should be discarded because of possible micro fractures caused by the squibb round getting stuck in the barrel.

I have never heard this before, and question whether a squibb load can cause enough pressure to fracture the barrel, yet not have enough ump to exit the bullet?

Is this statement true or false and why?
Thanks,
HVR

Oysterboy · August 9, 2015, 11:24 AM

That sound like nonsense to me.

kosby · August 9, 2015, 11:26 AM

I say false unless another round was fired before clearing the squib which will usually cause a bulge

James K · August 9, 2015, 11:33 AM

If a round has been fired with a bullet stuck in the barrel, the barrel probably has bulged and might be cracked. If it has cracked, it must be replaced (or cut off if the crack is at the end); there is no way to fix it. A bulge might mean replacing the barrel, but with low pressure cartridges it might still be usable.

But a squib load that has been shot out with only powder (no bullet) or driven out with a metal rod, there is no problem with the barrel other than (maybe) scratches if the rod is hard steel.

Jim

HighValleyRanch · August 9, 2015, 12:12 PM

To be clear, we are not talking about firing 2nd round after the first stuck squib load.
He was saying that even the initial squib load would cause damage to the barrel because of micro fracturing.

willr · August 9, 2015, 12:15 PM

I have always been told never to shoot out a stuck bullet with a powder only round. I've been told that the danger is a bulged barrel -- just as surely a full round following the squib. Getting the stuck bullet out with penetrating oil and a brass rod -- while it spoils your shooting session -- is far less costly.
willr

TunnelRat · August 9, 2015, 12:32 PM

Quote:

He was saying that even the initial squib load would cause damage to the barrel because of micro fracturing.

The only difference between a squib load and a regular cartridge is a lack of energy for the bullet to make it out of the barrel. If a squib load coming to stop in barrel can "micro fracture" the barrel, then full powered ammunition should be tearing barrels apart.

DaleA · August 9, 2015, 01:32 PM

Not that my reloading skills have EVER resulted in a squib load (snicker, snicker)....

And not that one (or even five or six) personal examples are worth anything statistically...

I've not noticed any difference at all in the guns where I've had a squib. And the squibs have always been very apparent because of the different sound and recoil of the shot so I've never put a second bullet down a blocked barrel.

And since I've already admitted you can't really make a good generalization out of just a few personal observations you can take this with a very big grain of salt.

In short, just saying your instructor is wrong.

Walt Sherrill · August 9, 2015, 08:11 PM

A squib round is one that didn't have enough force behind it to push it out the barrel. There was NOTHING in the first event that would have applied as much force or stress to the barrel as a properly ignited/powered round.

A second round fired while the squib load was still lodged in the barrel COULD (and probably WOULD) have caused problems.

The instructor doesn't know what he's talking about.

HighValleyRanch · August 9, 2015, 08:53 PM

I agree that I think the instructor was wrong in his theory.

But giving the idea some benefit of doubt:
1. a fully charged round having enough pressure to normally shoot the bullet out of the barrel will not damage the barrel because the total force is exiting THROUGH the barrel.

2. A squib load ends with the bullet stuck in the barrel, so any remaining force will then exert force WITHIN the barrel with an outward pressure.

3. So the question would be if there could some balance of power (partial ignition or partial powder charge) that would be light enough to get the bullet stuck in the barrel, yet have enough force behind it (once the bullet was stuck) to create enough outward pressure on the barrel to cause micro fracturing?

That might be the theory???
Not saying this can happen, only that this might be his logic.

As qualifying range officer, he was concerned enough about this incident as to not allow the participant to continue qualify with that weapon until the barrel was replace. I guess because of liability reasons.

Again, no second round discharged, just the initial squib.
No bulge, just disqualified on this premiss.

TunnelRat · August 9, 2015, 08:58 PM

Quote:

A squib load ends with the bullet stuck in the barrel, so any remaining force will then exert force WITHIN the barrel with an outward pressure.

This is simply wrong. When the bullet comes to a stop it no longer has any force. You're describing it as if it is a car that hits a wall (comes to a sudden stop) and exerts a force on the wall. This isn't what is happening. The bullet does not have enough energy to continue it's travel down the barrel. It is stopped by friction, as it would be normally if it didn't have enough energy. Think of it as a shuffleboard/air hockey puck that runs out of energy before reaching the end of the board. When it stops it isn't exerting a sudden burst of force against the board. Its stoppage is the result of friction across its entire travel.

I'm not trying to insult this range officer. I've encountered a lot of people who felt they knew what they were talking about simply because it was what someone else once told them. That doesn't make them right. The degree of misinformation in the firearms community is immense.

Walt Sherrill · August 9, 2015, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HighValleyRanch

..2. A squib load ends with the bullet stuck in the barrel, so any remaining force will then exert force WITHIN the barrel with an outward pressure.

If there was any remaining force, the bullet wouldn'tve stopped in the middle of the barrel!! It stopped because there was no remaining force...

The instructor in question doesn't have a clue.

DnPRK · August 9, 2015, 09:41 PM

I hope you didn't pay that instructor. Or got your money back if you did.

cougar gt-e · August 9, 2015, 10:06 PM

Quote:

But giving the idea some benefit of doubt:
1. a fully charged round having enough pressure to normally shoot the bullet out of the barrel will not damage the barrel because the total force is exiting THROUGH the barrel.

2. A squib load ends with the bullet stuck in the barrel, so any remaining force will then exert force WITHIN the barrel with an outward pressure.

Uh... no.

The gas pressure acts in all directions. That's how gas pressure works.

A normal round may have 35,000 psi and that pressure acts outward as well as laterally through the barrel on the base of the bullet. A squib load may only have a few thousand psi. When you put the numbers on paper, the instructors "hypothesis" looks sort of weak... like the power behind a squib.

**Aguila Blanca** · August 9, 2015, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HighValleyRanch

He was saying that even the initial squib load would cause damage to the barrel because of micro fracturing.

Impossible. If what he says were possible, then slugging a barrel should also cause "micro fracturing."

Find an instructor who knows something about firearms.

Regular Joe · August 9, 2015, 11:06 PM

What he said. This guy is no instructor.

James K · August 9, 2015, 11:19 PM

Shooting out a stuck bullet is perfectly feasible BUT USING ABOUT A HALF CHARGE OF POWDER AND NO BULLET. And do NOT try it with a factory blank cartridge!

The reason the barrel bulges when a bullet is fired into the stuck bullet is that when the second bullet stops, its kinetic energy is dumped as heat. The heat rise occurs so fast and dissipates so fast that there is little outward sign, but it is enough to soften the barrel steel so the pressure creates a bulge. That heat can compromise the barrel steel in that spot.

Jim

Walt Sherrill · August 10, 2015, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by James K

...The reason the barrel bulges when a bullet is fired into the stuck bullet is that when the second bullet stops, its kinetic energy is dumped as heat. The heat rise occurs so fast and dissipates so fast that there is little outward sign, but it is enough to soften the barrel steel so the pressure creates a bulge. That heat can compromise the barrel steel in that spot.

And THAT may have been the issue the "instructor" was trying to address when he said what he said. He either didn't mention the second shot being fired, or the person hearing the story MISSED that part. (Micro-fractures, however, is inconsistent with what happens.)

I've heard anecdotal stories -- don't know if it really happened -- of H&K sales reps actually firing an underloaded round to create a Squibb, and then firing a second shot to clear it -- demonstrating the robustness of the H&K product.

Such stories are like fundaments: everybody's got one.

JDBerg · August 10, 2015, 07:49 AM

A squib load happens with a round having little or no powder charge in the case, and the primer ignites with a pop and the bullet typically gets lodged in the chamber leade of the barrel, sometimes further down in the barrel. Drop a punch in the muzzle end of the barrel and hammer out the stuck bullet and the gun should be OK to go, although I'd stop using whatever ammo you are shooting since it is definitely suspect to have additional undercharged or uncharged rounds.

armedleo · August 10, 2015, 07:52 AM

From what's been described there'd be no reason for a barrel replacement. It looks like the instructor was more liability conscious than anything else. So he made a remark about replacing the barrel. And, of course, figuring no replacement barrel was readily available during the class that would take that firearm (and student) off the range. He terminated the risk of liability he perceived might be headed in his direction.

But how was the rest of the class? Did you learn anything useful? Was he able to help you improve your shooting?

Independent George · August 10, 2015, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by James K

Shooting out a stuck bullet is perfectly feasible BUT USING ABOUT A HALF CHARGE OF POWDER AND NO BULLET. And do NOT try it with a factory blank cartridge!

The reason the barrel bulges when a bullet is fired into the stuck bullet is that when the second bullet stops, its kinetic energy is dumped as heat. The heat rise occurs so fast and dissipates so fast that there is little outward sign, but it is enough to soften the barrel steel so the pressure creates a bulge. That heat can compromise the barrel steel in that spot.

Jim

Not an engineer, but that doesn't quite sound right to me.

If the half-power charge is not enough to clear the squib, and the bullet never exits the barrel, the pressure inside the chamber still sounds dangerous to me. Depending on where the bullet got stuck, the chamber pressure will also be lower due to the greater space - possibly too low to clear the squib, and still higher than the frame can handle, even at half power.

TailGator · August 10, 2015, 09:02 AM

Looking at it another way, any pressure remaining in the barrel in the instant after a squib bullet lodges in the barrel will be vented by the action. In fact, most squibs have insufficient pressure to work the action fully, so there certainly won't be enough pressure to harm the barrel. In revolvers, the cylinder gap would similarly vent the pressure.

The damage from squibs occurs when people don't recognize them and continue firing in every instance I am aware of.

On the one and only occasion when I had a squib (and it was of my own making) the bullet came out of the barrel with a hardwood dowel and a couple of taps from a rubber mallet. I am not sure I would try shooting it out with a powder charge, but if it seems that it has worked for some, so I won't quibble with success.

Walt Sherrill · August 10, 2015, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IndependentGeorge

If the half-power charge is not enough to clear the squib, and the bullet never exits the barrel, the pressure inside the chamber still sounds dangerous to me. Depending on where the bullet got stuck, the chamber pressure will also be lower due to the greater space - possibly too low to clear the squib, and still higher than the frame can handle, even at half power.

If a half-powered load that leaves a bullet lodged in the barrel could cause damage, why wouldn't a full-power round that travels just as far as the squib load, but which is powered by more explosive force (a full, rather than half-powered load), also cause the same damage when it reaches that same point in the barrel?

You may have meant to say something other than "frame" when you wrote the comment above, but the FRAME isn't really affected by pressure. Put simply, the frame is primarily an on/of switch that provides a base upon which the slide can operate.

The barrel is designed to withstand more pressure than the ammo it shoots, and the ammo itself is typically loaded to strict standards. The barrel is the only thing directly affected by pressure and it includes two safety valves: 1) the bullet will eventually leave the barrel and the pressure will drop, and 2) the barrel itself (powered to the rear by the equal but opposite force of the explosion) will quickly unlock from the slide. When it unlock, the casing is free to move to the rear and another "window" is opened to lower pressure. Some guns, like the flip-up barrreled Berettas, use that pressure as the gun's extractor!

If there's not enough pressure from the powder explosion to cause 1) or 2), there's arguably not enough pressure to cause damage to the barrel. Massive overloads could certainly cause damage, but we're talking about squib loads, and NOT hyper-powered rounds inappropriate for the gun.

The real danger with a squib event is not realizing that it has occurred, and taking a second shot with a bullet in the barrel. Pressure can then be a problem -- but there's no guarantee that the frame will be affected. With massive overloads, the frame can be affected by shrapnel.

T. O'Heir · August 10, 2015, 01:53 PM

"...its kinetic energy is dumped as heat..." Nope. It's dumped as kinetic energy. The first bullet gets bashed by the second and expands outwards before being pushed further. No heat is generated. No way for heat to be generated. As mentioned, a stopped bullet has no energy, of any kind.
"...enough to soften the barrel steel..." Don't be daft. It takes 430F to turn steel pale yellow. 1400 degrees and 1500 degrees F to anneal high carbon steel.
"...Shooting out a stuck bullet is perfectly feasible..." And will cause damage.
That instructor come with any real credentials?

Pond, James Pond · August 10, 2015, 02:02 PM

I can see what the person is thinking: that once the bullet is stationary it essentially acts as a plug to the roiling masses of hot gases behind the bullet and that they'll only have one way to go: through the barrel wall.

I think we need to consider which action requires less energy: pushing a bullet down a tight barrel or fracturing the metal walls of a treated barrel.

I think we know the answer as I can, with a dowel, pressure from my musculo-skeletal system and some choice metaphoric language, push a bullet down the length of a barrel. With those same facilities I cannot fracture a barrel wall.

Force will always take the path of least resistance and that is via the bullet's rear-end.

August 9, 2015, 11:17 AM	#1
HighValleyRanch Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2005 Posts: 4,066	Discard barrel after squibb load At a recent firearms class, the instructor made a remark that once one had a squibb load in a gun, the barrel should be discarded because of possible micro fractures caused by the squibb round getting stuck in the barrel. I have never heard this before, and question whether a squibb load can cause enough pressure to fracture the barrel, yet not have enough ump to exit the bullet? Is this statement true or false and why? Thanks, HVR __________________ From the sweet grass to the slaughter house; From birth until death; We travel between these two eternities........from 'Broken Trail"

August 9, 2015, 12:12 PM	#5
HighValleyRanch Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2005 Posts: 4,066	To be clear, we are not talking about firing 2nd round after the first stuck squib load. He was saying that even the initial squib load would cause damage to the barrel because of micro fracturing. __________________ From the sweet grass to the slaughter house; From birth until death; We travel between these two eternities........from 'Broken Trail"

August 9, 2015, 08:53 PM	#10
HighValleyRanch Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2005 Posts: 4,066	I agree that I think the instructor was wrong in his theory. But giving the idea some benefit of doubt: 1. a fully charged round having enough pressure to normally shoot the bullet out of the barrel will not damage the barrel because the total force is exiting THROUGH the barrel. 2. A squib load ends with the bullet stuck in the barrel, so any remaining force will then exert force WITHIN the barrel with an outward pressure. 3. So the question would be if there could some balance of power (partial ignition or partial powder charge) that would be light enough to get the bullet stuck in the barrel, yet have enough force behind it (once the bullet was stuck) to create enough outward pressure on the barrel to cause micro fracturing? That might be the theory??? Not saying this can happen, only that this might be his logic. As qualifying range officer, he was concerned enough about this incident as to not allow the participant to continue qualify with that weapon until the barrel was replace. I guess because of liability reasons. Again, no second round discharged, just the initial squib. No bulge, just disqualified on this premiss. __________________ From the sweet grass to the slaughter house; From birth until death; We travel between these two eternities........from 'Broken Trail"

August 10, 2015, 07:49 AM	#19
JDBerg Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 2015 Location: PA Posts: 1,835	A squib load happens with a round having little or no powder charge in the case, and the primer ignites with a pop and the bullet typically gets lodged in the chamber leade of the barrel, sometimes further down in the barrel. Drop a punch in the muzzle end of the barrel and hammer out the stuck bullet and the gun should be OK to go, although I'd stop using whatever ammo you are shooting since it is definitely suspect to have additional undercharged or uncharged rounds. __________________ Words to Live By: Before You Pray - Believe; Before You Speak - Listen; Before You Spend - Earn; Before You Write - Think; Before You Quit - Try; Before You Die - Live

August 10, 2015, 01:53 PM	#24
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...its kinetic energy is dumped as heat..." Nope. It's dumped as kinetic energy. The first bullet gets bashed by the second and expands outwards before being pushed further. No heat is generated. No way for heat to be generated. As mentioned, a stopped bullet has no energy, of any kind. "...enough to soften the barrel steel..." Don't be daft. It takes 430F to turn steel pale yellow. 1400 degrees and 1500 degrees F to anneal high carbon steel. "...Shooting out a stuck bullet is perfectly feasible..." And will cause damage. That instructor come with any real credentials? __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

August 9, 2015, 11:24 AM	#2
Oysterboy Senior Member Join Date: March 3, 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 970	That sound like nonsense to me.

August 9, 2015, 11:26 AM	#3
kosby Junior Member Join Date: September 26, 2011 Posts: 12	I say false unless another round was fired before clearing the squib which will usually cause a bulge

August 9, 2015, 11:33 AM	#4
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	If a round has been fired with a bullet stuck in the barrel, the barrel probably has bulged and might be cracked. If it has cracked, it must be replaced (or cut off if the crack is at the end); there is no way to fix it. A bulge might mean replacing the barrel, but with low pressure cartridges it might still be usable. But a squib load that has been shot out with only powder (no bullet) or driven out with a metal rod, there is no problem with the barrel other than (maybe) scratches if the rod is hard steel. Jim

August 9, 2015, 12:15 PM	#6
willr Senior Member Join Date: July 23, 2006 Posts: 356	I have always been told never to shoot out a stuck bullet with a powder only round. I've been told that the danger is a bulged barrel -- just as surely a full round following the squib. Getting the stuck bullet out with penetrating oil and a brass rod -- while it spoils your shooting session -- is far less costly. willr

August 9, 2015, 01:32 PM	#8
DaleA Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2002 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 5,313	Not that my reloading skills have EVER resulted in a squib load (snicker, snicker).... And not that one (or even five or six) personal examples are worth anything statistically... I've not noticed any difference at all in the guns where I've had a squib. And the squibs have always been very apparent because of the different sound and recoil of the shot so I've never put a second bullet down a blocked barrel. And since I've already admitted you can't really make a good generalization out of just a few personal observations you can take this with a very big grain of salt. In short, just saying your instructor is wrong.

August 9, 2015, 08:11 PM	#9
Walt Sherrill Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 1999 Location: Winston-Salem, NC USA Posts: 6,348	A squib round is one that didn't have enough force behind it to push it out the barrel. There was NOTHING in the first event that would have applied as much force or stress to the barrel as a properly ignited/powered round. A second round fired while the squib load was still lodged in the barrel COULD (and probably WOULD) have caused problems. The instructor doesn't know what he's talking about.

August 9, 2015, 09:41 PM	#13
DnPRK Senior Member Join Date: August 24, 2001 Location: LC, Ca Posts: 1,917	I hope you didn't pay that instructor. Or got your money back if you did.

August 9, 2015, 11:06 PM	#16
Regular Joe Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2008 Posts: 255	What he said. This guy is no instructor.

August 9, 2015, 11:19 PM	#17
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Shooting out a stuck bullet is perfectly feasible BUT USING ABOUT A HALF CHARGE OF POWDER AND NO BULLET. And do NOT try it with a factory blank cartridge! The reason the barrel bulges when a bullet is fired into the stuck bullet is that when the second bullet stops, its kinetic energy is dumped as heat. The heat rise occurs so fast and dissipates so fast that there is little outward sign, but it is enough to soften the barrel steel so the pressure creates a bulge. That heat can compromise the barrel steel in that spot. Jim

August 10, 2015, 07:52 AM	#20
armedleo Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2015 Posts: 265	From what's been described there'd be no reason for a barrel replacement. It looks like the instructor was more liability conscious than anything else. So he made a remark about replacing the barrel. And, of course, figuring no replacement barrel was readily available during the class that would take that firearm (and student) off the range. He terminated the risk of liability he perceived might be headed in his direction. But how was the rest of the class? Did you learn anything useful? Was he able to help you improve your shooting?

August 10, 2015, 09:02 AM	#22
TailGator Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 3,787	Looking at it another way, any pressure remaining in the barrel in the instant after a squib bullet lodges in the barrel will be vented by the action. In fact, most squibs have insufficient pressure to work the action fully, so there certainly won't be enough pressure to harm the barrel. In revolvers, the cylinder gap would similarly vent the pressure. The damage from squibs occurs when people don't recognize them and continue firing in every instance I am aware of. On the one and only occasion when I had a squib (and it was of my own making) the bullet came out of the barrel with a hardwood dowel and a couple of taps from a rubber mallet. I am not sure I would try shooting it out with a powder charge, but if it seems that it has worked for some, so I won't quibble with success.

August 10, 2015, 02:02 PM	#25
Pond, James Pond Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2011 Location: Top of the Baltic stack Posts: 6,079	I can see what the person is thinking: that once the bullet is stationary it essentially acts as a plug to the roiling masses of hot gases behind the bullet and that they'll only have one way to go: through the barrel wall. I think we need to consider which action requires less energy: pushing a bullet down a tight barrel or fracturing the metal walls of a treated barrel. I think we know the answer as I can, with a dowel, pressure from my musculo-skeletal system and some choice metaphoric language, push a bullet down the length of a barrel. With those same facilities I cannot fracture a barrel wall. Force will always take the path of least resistance and that is via the bullet's rear-end. __________________ When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic. Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.