I think I've had it wrong all these years - Page 4

**Shane Tuttle** · October 22, 2008, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZeSpectre

Just curious, did you happen to pay attention to the distances? The rapid fire target was at 50 feet (16 yards).

No, because your chicken scratches aren't very readable from my 5 year old monitor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephen426

I also think he failed to notice that your target was printed on a 8.5" x 11" piece of paper!!! Good shooting Z!

No I didn't, stephen. I read what was in bold and my eyes must have moved right past the finer print of the target size. I assumed that the sihlouette target was of actual size. No excuses. I just didn't catch all that was disclaimed. Sorry about that.

Fiddletown,

Your statements regarding what Louis Awerbuck is what I completely agree on. I've tried to explain where I was coming from on my way of pistol presentation in another thread. I was trying to understand why one would want move the gun to the center of your chest while firing the gun (in a nutshell). I was taught and prefer Randy Cain's teaching which he was a disciple of Awerbuck and others.

stephen426 · October 22, 2008, 11:03 PM

I'm going to the range again tomorrow. I'm going to bring some black electrical tape and tape the sights on my Glock. I'm going to concentrate more on my grip and how the guns feels in my hand rather than relying on the sights. I hope it works out! I will probably also work on firing faster while trying to keep adecent groupings. I will give you guys an update tomorrow.

easyG · October 30, 2008, 10:09 AM

I used to go to the range and shoot for as much accuracy as possible.
I would perfect my stance, makes sure that my grip was just right, get that perfect sight picture, control my breathing, etc....
And I was very accurate and my targets all looked real nice.

But lately I have changed the way I practice.
Now I mostly practive shooting with one hand, with about half my range time using my left hand (I'm right handed), and I practice rapid fire mainly just aiming with the front sight.
My targets don't look near as nice as they did before, but I think the "training" is more realistic.

stephen426 · October 31, 2008, 09:38 AM

I finally made it out to the range. I taped the sights on my Glock 26 and practiced point shooting without using the sights at 7 yards. My groups were not pretty at all and it the target looks like it got hit by a few rounds of buck shot to the chest. Most of my shots still hit upper COM, but I did have a few misses as well (almost all high and to the left). I believe those were a result of double tapping before getting back on target.

I also practiced firing string of 5 rounds as quickly as I could bring the gun back on target. While I didn't unload the gun as quickly as I could pull the trigger, I fired much faster than I normally practice and I focused on pulling the trigger as soon as the gun came back on target. This was mostly with my Glock 26 and my Kahr MK9 since those are what I carry. I did some drills from the low ready position and punching the gun out towards the target.

When I moved to my Les Baer, accuracy improved dramatically. While I know the Baer is much more accurate overall, I attibute most of that improvement to the longer sight radius and the overall pointability of the gun.

My observation from all of this "new" practice...
- Flash sight picture is MUCH more accurate than unsighted fire. Even if you are only looking over the top of the gun, accuracy improves dramatically. Having a consistent grip/stance/position leads to much better accuracy with unsighted fire and help line up your shot faster even with sighted fire. Practicing "rapid fire" is useful since it forces you to become more familiar with the gun's recoil characteristics (snappiness, recoil impulse, twist, etc...). With slow fire, there is too much time for resetting. Consequently, I feel more rapid fire drills will greatly improve my double tap ability since I will become more faimiliar with the gun's "reset position" (not sure of the term for when the gun goes back to the point of aim after the recoil cycle).

It was an eye opening experience and a bit humbling as well. It was hard not printing pretty little groups, but that will come in time. in the meanwhile, I've got some practicing to do!

**Frank Ettin** · October 31, 2008, 10:12 AM

stephen426,

It sounds like you had a worthwhile trip to the range. I also agree that rapid fire practice is very important. You want to learn to manage the recoil. I also suggest varying the number of shots in the shot string, making each string 2 to 5 or 6 shots with some speed reloads thrown in to keep the gun in action if you run dry during a string.

You might also want to invest in a shot timer so that you can see how fast you're shooting and get a better idea of the balance between speed and accuracy. As Jeff Cooper used to say, "Shoot as quickly as you can, but no quicker."

Well done.

stephen426 · October 31, 2008, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Today 11:12 AM
fiddletown

It sounds like you had a worthwhile trip to the range. I also agree that rapid fire practice is very important. You want to learn to manage the recoil. I also suggest varying the number of shots in the shot string, making each string 2 to 5 or 6 shots with some speed reloads thrown in to keep the gun in action if you run dry during a string.

You might also want to invest in a shot timer so that you can see how fast you're shooting and get a better idea of the balance between speed and accuracy. As Jeff Cooper used to say, "Shoot as quickly as you can, but no quicker."

Well done.

Thanks for the advice. I was actually looking at getting a shot timer. I still hope to find time to join IPSC/IDPA/ PPC type shooting competitions. I'm not sure what the differences are, but I want to use my carry guns. When you get into the tricked out race guns, it becomes more sport rather than practical self defense. Some skills will still carry over, but who the heck walks around with speed holsters and half a dozen mags. Besides, I imagine a fully tricked out race gun would be a bit hard to conceal.

**Frank Ettin** · October 31, 2008, 01:01 PM

Competition can be a good extension of training and practice. It's not a place to learn self defense and tactics. Especially IPSC (USPSA in the U. S.) and IDPA are excellent ways to learn and practice skills like safe gun handling, moving safely with a loaded weapon, shooting from unconventional postures, target acquisition, shooting fast and accurately, reloading, etc., all under the stress of competition.

To get an idea of the differences, you may want to do a little searching on the Internet. Both USPSA and IDPA have websites, and either of them will probably offer more of the kind of shooting you may be looking for. PPC, as I understand it, places more emphasis on accuracy and less on time pressure. And in PPC, the course of fire is standardized, so USPSA and IDPA provide more variation. And you would be able to use your carry gun in either USPSA or IDPA.

October 22, 2008, 11:03 PM	#77
stephen426 Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2005 Posts: 3,840	I'm going to the range again tomorrow. I'm going to bring some black electrical tape and tape the sights on my Glock. I'm going to concentrate more on my grip and how the guns feels in my hand rather than relying on the sights. I hope it works out! I will probably also work on firing faster while trying to keep adecent groupings. I will give you guys an update tomorrow. __________________ The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency!

October 31, 2008, 09:38 AM	#79
stephen426 Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2005 Posts: 3,840	I finally made it out to the range. I taped the sights on my Glock 26 and practiced point shooting without using the sights at 7 yards. My groups were not pretty at all and it the target looks like it got hit by a few rounds of buck shot to the chest. Most of my shots still hit upper COM, but I did have a few misses as well (almost all high and to the left). I believe those were a result of double tapping before getting back on target. I also practiced firing string of 5 rounds as quickly as I could bring the gun back on target. While I didn't unload the gun as quickly as I could pull the trigger, I fired much faster than I normally practice and I focused on pulling the trigger as soon as the gun came back on target. This was mostly with my Glock 26 and my Kahr MK9 since those are what I carry. I did some drills from the low ready position and punching the gun out towards the target. When I moved to my Les Baer, accuracy improved dramatically. While I know the Baer is much more accurate overall, I attibute most of that improvement to the longer sight radius and the overall pointability of the gun. My observation from all of this "new" practice... - Flash sight picture is MUCH more accurate than unsighted fire. Even if you are only looking over the top of the gun, accuracy improves dramatically. Having a consistent grip/stance/position leads to much better accuracy with unsighted fire and help line up your shot faster even with sighted fire. Practicing "rapid fire" is useful since it forces you to become more familiar with the gun's recoil characteristics (snappiness, recoil impulse, twist, etc...). With slow fire, there is too much time for resetting. Consequently, I feel more rapid fire drills will greatly improve my double tap ability since I will become more faimiliar with the gun's "reset position" (not sure of the term for when the gun goes back to the point of aim after the recoil cycle). It was an eye opening experience and a bit humbling as well. It was hard not printing pretty little groups, but that will come in time. in the meanwhile, I've got some practicing to do! __________________ The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency!

October 30, 2008, 10:09 AM	#78
easyG Junior member Join Date: August 30, 2004 Location: Right here! Posts: 972	I used to go to the range and shoot for as much accuracy as possible. I would perfect my stance, makes sure that my grip was just right, get that perfect sight picture, control my breathing, etc.... And I was very accurate and my targets all looked real nice. But lately I have changed the way I practice. Now I mostly practive shooting with one hand, with about half my range time using my left hand (I'm right handed), and I practice rapid fire mainly just aiming with the front sight. My targets don't look near as nice as they did before, but I think the "training" is more realistic.

October 31, 2008, 10:12 AM	#80
Frank Ettin Staff Join Date: November 23, 2005 Location: California - San Francisco Posts: 9,471	stephen426, It sounds like you had a worthwhile trip to the range. I also agree that rapid fire practice is very important. You want to learn to manage the recoil. I also suggest varying the number of shots in the shot string, making each string 2 to 5 or 6 shots with some speed reloads thrown in to keep the gun in action if you run dry during a string. You might also want to invest in a shot timer so that you can see how fast you're shooting and get a better idea of the balance between speed and accuracy. As Jeff Cooper used to say, "Shoot as quickly as you can, but no quicker." Well done.

October 31, 2008, 01:01 PM	#82
Frank Ettin Staff Join Date: November 23, 2005 Location: California - San Francisco Posts: 9,471	Competition can be a good extension of training and practice. It's not a place to learn self defense and tactics. Especially IPSC (USPSA in the U. S.) and IDPA are excellent ways to learn and practice skills like safe gun handling, moving safely with a loaded weapon, shooting from unconventional postures, target acquisition, shooting fast and accurately, reloading, etc., all under the stress of competition. To get an idea of the differences, you may want to do a little searching on the Internet. Both USPSA and IDPA have websites, and either of them will probably offer more of the kind of shooting you may be looking for. PPC, as I understand it, places more emphasis on accuracy and less on time pressure. And in PPC, the course of fire is standardized, so USPSA and IDPA provide more variation. And you would be able to use your carry gun in either USPSA or IDPA.