Tactical purpose of the FN 5.7s

Composer_1777 · July 30, 2009, 04:41 PM

I'll admit I am intrigued over this round and am starting to lean toward buying the FN combo.

It got me thinking: if you owned the combo or had to use that combo in battle, what scenario would you choose.

Can these weapons really handle urban combat? how do you think a civilian would fare against a domestic military using riot gear?

Finally, why should anyone buy the P90 over the FS2000?

Tucker 1371 · July 30, 2009, 04:51 PM

The commercial loads cannot defeat body armor like the military SS190 round can. Still, with the right bullet composition I think the 5.7 would make an excellent SD/HD round in either the PS90 or the FiveseveN. Just my .02

BlackFeather · July 30, 2009, 05:25 PM

I think they would be great in almost any SD or HD defense... even against military.... as long as you have the ability.... its not the gun its the user... I would use them and I prefer the 7.62x39... but in city, desert, forest, trench, or boat to boat or on the same boat???... it really changes things depending where you are... desert or forest id rather have a larger rifle round but the pistol is still useful...

Hellbilly5000 · July 30, 2009, 06:10 PM

I have had the opportunity to play with the military version of the p90 a good number of years ago. I thought it was a blast to shoot (then again what fully auto gun is'ent a blast to shoot) With it being short and compact with a 50 round magazine it does make it a great weapon for mount training.
The only backdraw is the way you load the magazines it gets very hard to get used to slapping something down and not up

Sefner · July 30, 2009, 10:08 PM

Talking about the pistol, the Five-seveN here... I would fear over-penetrating in confined areas such as office and apartment complexes. Otherwise, I hear the accuracy at even out to medium-range is second-to-none (also recoil is not that bad). Pistol itself is light and futuristic looking. Ammo is expensive as all getout.

Glenn E. Meyer · July 31, 2009, 11:09 AM

The weapon was designed to penetrate Soviet body armor with an ergonomic and easy to use platform - both the long arm and pistol. The latter was an armor piercing side arm for rear echelon personnel. That assumed a frontal assault by the Soviets and special units attacking the rear. Also, the front could get penetrated. The commonality of the pistol and rifle round were a selling point.

Since civilians can't have armor piercing rounds and don't face that many armored foes (yes, you could walk into North Hollywood again) - it's not really designed for us.

Some folks say the civilian round is like a 22 mag in stopping power but that' an unknown. In the civilian world, putting any rounds into the BG usually brings the incident to a successful conclusion (yes, the mad Meth biker might show up). So the gun would work for you. But what's the advantage over an AR or M-4?

They are cool and can be used to shoot down enemy spacecraft as shown by successful engagements of the Go'auld by SG-1. Col. Carter loves her P-90 and that's good enough for me.

PSP · July 31, 2009, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Ammo is expensive as all getout.

Compared to what. I paid $15 a box for SS192 and can buy all the SS197 I want for $18.

Quote:

I would fear over-penetrating in confined areas such as office and apartment complexes.

The round is not known for over-penetration. Where did you get info that it does?

Quote:

But what's the advantage over an AR or M-4?

Not over-penetrating, as a 5.56 tends to do. Especially in urban areas or in VIP protection roles the ability to focus rounds on a tight target, even in full auto, due to the lack of recoil, makes the 5.7 very useful.

I'm not sure I'd want the pistol in a HD role. The flash is enormous and the report is very loud. I don't doubt the lethality, but I'd rather not have the side effects.

Quote:

how do you think a civilian would fare against a domestic military using riot gear?

Against the military you would lose. Of that there is no doubt. They have toys that blow stuff up at great range. The military prefers to use explosives first and then use small arms to kill the survivors.

buzz_knox · July 31, 2009, 12:05 PM

Quote:

The weapon was designed to penetrate Soviet body armor with an ergonomic and easy to use platform - both the long arm and pistol. The latter was an armor piercing side arm for rear echelon personnel.

The P90 itself was designed to meet the PDW requirements, which was to provide personnel who normally would only have a pistol with a weapon with superior penetration and hit rate to the pistol. The small size of the cartridge was designed to allow for a reduced recoil and increased rate of fire so as to facilitate use. The pistol was just a natural followon for those personnel who wouldn't even be issued the P90, or for those who buy combos.

It's worth noting that the armor specs that the P90 was designed to meet have evolved over time so that the 5.7 might not defeat armor confronted today.

Glenn E. Meyer · July 31, 2009, 12:36 PM

I think the flying saucers have upgraded also, Buzz.

Also, haven't we discussed the evidence that 223 overpenetration isn't that much of problem as compared to regular old pistol rounds? Quite common discussion.

Composer_1777 · July 31, 2009, 12:39 PM

Great info, thanks

buzz_knox · July 31, 2009, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Also, haven't we discussed the evidence that 223 overpenetration isn't that much of problem as compared to regular old pistol rounds? Quite common discussion.

Yes, but those discussions and the copious amounts of proof tend to be "forgotten" when convenient. People believe what they want to believe, even when subject matter experts (of which I am not one just to be clear) are explicit on the subject.

When LE agencies are dumping pistol caliber weapons in favor of 5.56 for entry weapons specifically because the 5.56 won't overpenetrate as much, they must be universally wrong.

PSP · July 31, 2009, 04:14 PM

If you are limiting the discussion to civilian ammo the 5.56 may not have the penetration I refer to, that of normal military ammo. A military 5.56 round will indeed penetrate a human being more so than a 5.7, any 5.7 variant.

Certain military units do not use the 5.56 because of over-penetration concerns.

July 30, 2009, 04:41 PM	#1
Composer_1777 Junior member Join Date: June 30, 2009 Location: New Orleans, La Posts: 242	Tactical purpose of the FN 5.7s I'll admit I am intrigued over this round and am starting to lean toward buying the FN combo. It got me thinking: if you owned the combo or had to use that combo in battle, what scenario would you choose. Can these weapons really handle urban combat? how do you think a civilian would fare against a domestic military using riot gear? Finally, why should anyone buy the P90 over the FS2000?

July 30, 2009, 04:51 PM	#2
Tucker 1371 Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2008 Location: East TN Posts: 2,649	The commercial loads cannot defeat body armor like the military SS190 round can. Still, with the right bullet composition I think the 5.7 would make an excellent SD/HD round in either the PS90 or the FiveseveN. Just my .02 __________________ Sgt. of Marines, 5th Award Expert Rifle, 237/250 Expert Pistol, 382/400. D Co, 4th CEB, Engineers UP!! If you start a thread, be active in it. Don't leave us hanging. OEF 2011 Sangin, Afg. Molon Labe

July 30, 2009, 05:25 PM	#3
BlackFeather Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2009 Location: West Coast Posts: 450	I think they would be great in almost any SD or HD defense... even against military.... as long as you have the ability.... its not the gun its the user... I would use them and I prefer the 7.62x39... but in city, desert, forest, trench, or boat to boat or on the same boat???... it really changes things depending where you are... desert or forest id rather have a larger rifle round but the pistol is still useful... __________________ "Today is victory over yourself of yesterday; tomorrow is your victory over lesser men." - Miyamoto Musashi [Insert random irrelevant religious quote here]

July 30, 2009, 06:10 PM	#4
Hellbilly5000 Senior Member Join Date: March 24, 2009 Location: RGV, Tx Posts: 787	I have had the opportunity to play with the military version of the p90 a good number of years ago. I thought it was a blast to shoot (then again what fully auto gun is'ent a blast to shoot) With it being short and compact with a 50 round magazine it does make it a great weapon for mount training. The only backdraw is the way you load the magazines it gets very hard to get used to slapping something down and not up __________________ And death climbs the steps one by one, To give you the rose that's been burnt by her son, Point me to the sky above I can't get there on my own, Walk me through the graveyard Dig up her bones

July 30, 2009, 10:08 PM	#5
Sefner Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2009 Location: Michigan Posts: 769	Talking about the pistol, the Five-seveN here... I would fear over-penetrating in confined areas such as office and apartment complexes. Otherwise, I hear the accuracy at even out to medium-range is second-to-none (also recoil is not that bad). Pistol itself is light and futuristic looking. Ammo is expensive as all getout. Last edited by Sefner; July 30, 2009 at 10:09 PM. Reason: adding context

July 31, 2009, 11:09 AM	#6
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	The weapon was designed to penetrate Soviet body armor with an ergonomic and easy to use platform - both the long arm and pistol. The latter was an armor piercing side arm for rear echelon personnel. That assumed a frontal assault by the Soviets and special units attacking the rear. Also, the front could get penetrated. The commonality of the pistol and rifle round were a selling point. Since civilians can't have armor piercing rounds and don't face that many armored foes (yes, you could walk into North Hollywood again) - it's not really designed for us. Some folks say the civilian round is like a 22 mag in stopping power but that' an unknown. In the civilian world, putting any rounds into the BG usually brings the incident to a successful conclusion (yes, the mad Meth biker might show up). So the gun would work for you. But what's the advantage over an AR or M-4? They are cool and can be used to shoot down enemy spacecraft as shown by successful engagements of the Go'auld by SG-1. Col. Carter loves her P-90 and that's good enough for me. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

July 31, 2009, 12:36 PM	#9
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	I think the flying saucers have upgraded also, Buzz. Also, haven't we discussed the evidence that 223 overpenetration isn't that much of problem as compared to regular old pistol rounds? Quite common discussion. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

July 31, 2009, 12:39 PM	#10
Composer_1777 Junior member Join Date: June 30, 2009 Location: New Orleans, La Posts: 242	Great info, thanks

July 31, 2009, 04:14 PM	#12
PSP Senior Member Join Date: June 2, 2006 Location: Bowling Green Virginia Posts: 4,487	If you are limiting the discussion to civilian ammo the 5.56 may not have the penetration I refer to, that of normal military ammo. A military 5.56 round will indeed penetrate a human being more so than a 5.7, any 5.7 variant. Certain military units do not use the 5.56 because of over-penetration concerns.