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Old May 22, 2014, 12:43 AM   #1
mcz0804a
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2 Mausers + 3 Carcanos= $500: Good Deal?

I don't have a C&R yet (I'm waiting till I get out of the military, in the next few months), but I figured based on the rifles this was the best section to post in.

I have the oppertunity to purchase:

1) Loewe Argentino 1891 Mauser 7.65 Arg.

2) Italian Carano 42 6.5 with 26" Barrel

3) Japanese Carcano 6.5 x 55

4) DWN Argentino Mauser 1891 6.5 x 55

5) Beretta Carcano 6.5


Before I drive to the seller to put hands on and inspect the weapons I wanted to do some research. As best as my research says each of these guns typically goes for $60 - $250. If the pictures indicate their condition accurately, I guess somewhere in the middle.

My question is: If each rifle is in decent condition, and his description is correct is this a good deal?


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Old May 22, 2014, 12:55 AM   #2
tahunua001
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that's about right on the asking prices on those rifles but those are no longer C&R. they have all been sporterized and modified so heavily that they have no collectors value anymore and in no way represent the families of firearms that they originally came from.

the Japanese Type I arisaka, sometimes called the japanese carcano was a true oddity before someone mangled it. only one of those rifles are still in their original caliber(the argentine mauser) and none of them still have the proper stock lengths, sights, and bolt handle configuration.

I am a collector first and a shooter second. I would not buy those guns for the simple reason that they are no longer original. I would also be leery because I have no idea how competent the gun smith was that converted all of the calibers on them, the wood work is far from stellar so I am willing to guess they were all basement gunwork projects and not something I would feel safe shooting. just me though.
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Old May 22, 2014, 01:23 AM   #3
mcz0804a
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And that there is exactly why I asked. I knew someone on here would know.

Thank you tahunua001.

As a collector, could you suggest any materials to read to learn the basics? I'm not sure what type of collecting I will find myself getting into, but are there any good "Idiots Guide" type books/articles/pages I should read? TBH, I don't even know what "sporterized" means, aside from a shortened stock, thats how new I am. But everyone has to start somewhere I guess.


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Mike
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Old May 22, 2014, 06:38 AM   #4
BoogieMan
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At the OP. I am far from the point of being knowledgeable in the art of firearm collecting. But, I have learned a great deal at the local gun shops and when I have a chance gun shows. Keep your money in your pocket, look and listen. IMO getting your hands on original milsurps and taking the time to inspect the markings, fit, finish, etc.. will go a long way. You can take the little bit of info you gain to ask more in depth questions.
Sporterized- Is taking a military rifle and converting the features to be more user friendly for range or hunting use. Shortening barrel, changing caliber, modifying or changing the stock.
I have a Enfield with the hand guard (wood on top of barrel) and barrel cone removed. This is a good example of basic sporterization.
I also have a FN mauser. Its 30-06 (would have been 8mm mauser), the wood has been formed into a nice pistol grip stock and checkered. Scope mounted and a drop out floor plate added. This is a heavily sporterized rifle.

If you feel the need to buy. You may want to grab up a Mosin Nagant. They are currently very inexpensive (under $150) and there is a lot of info about them. It will give you a chance to get your feet wet and learn about all the ins and outs.
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Old May 22, 2014, 11:54 AM   #5
DennisCA
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Def too bad some richard-head had to mess with them.

Maybe you could talk the guy down, (to a lower price) get them and restore them?
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Old May 22, 2014, 01:26 PM   #6
James K
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The price is OK, if it is understood that it is about retail price and if you sold those guns you probably wouldn't get much more than what you would pay. But if you want a few inexpensive hunting rifles to study and get an idea how they work, the money might be well spent if you can afford it.

"Sporterize" is the term used for converting a military bring-back or surplus rifle into something approximating a sporting rifle. It usually involves, as a minimum, removing the front of the foreend, but can also involve replacing the stock, drilling and tapping for a scope; bending the bolt handle down, also for a scope; changing the safety; rebluing; and even rebarrelling. As you can gather, the cost of "sporterizing" can range from a quick pass with a hacksaw to hundreds of dollars worth of custom gunsmith work. While an original rifle is "ruined" in any case, the value of the result can be either reduced or enhanced depending on what is done.

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Old May 22, 2014, 01:43 PM   #7
Blindstitch
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Just curious do you know why the one has a pink/orange zip tie on it?

I actually kind of like that stock with it's spotty nature.
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Old May 22, 2014, 03:58 PM   #8
tahunua001
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zip ties on the actions are often what they do at gun shows to show that they have been safety checked and to prevent a crazy person from inserting ammunition. it is probably likely that the guy bought this gun from a gun show and never fired it or he took it to a gun show and couldn't find a buyer.
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Old May 22, 2014, 05:58 PM   #9
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Not even remotely worth it. Sorry.

Assuming you got the calibers correct, and I don't think 6.5x55mm is the "right" 6.5 caliber for Carcanos, the only one that has reasonably available ammo is the 6.5x55mm Swede round.

Also, 6.5 Carcanos are noted for large variances in groove diameter.

If you are looking for good issue condition milsurps for collecting, these aren't it. The stock work alone lowers their collector value a lot.

If you are looking for a milsurp rifle for shooting pleasure, there are better ones. Essentially you are looking at some of the least desirable milsurps, that have been sporterized, and are in uncommon calibers.

Although not recently, I've bought many better rifles for $75 apiece. If you've got the itch, and just have to have them, fine, but you aren't getting any deal, and their resale value is nothing, unless you find just the right guy. And they are scarce.

If they were SMLEs, or 98 Mausers, or Springfields, even sporterized, I'd go for it. Carcanos, while they have a place in rifle history, are not good rifles. I don't mean they aren't well made, just the design is not a particularly good one, comnpared to a Mauser.

Essentially, rare old crap is still crap, and modified crap isn't even worth what collectable crap is. Not worth the asking price, to me.
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Old May 22, 2014, 08:01 PM   #10
chiefr
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Quote:
tahunua001
Posted
that's about right on the asking prices on those rifles but those are no longer C&R. they have all been sporterized and modified so heavily that they have no collectors value anymore and in no way represent the families of firearms that they originally came from.

100% correct.
Times have changed since the post WWII era. No one wants these rifles and there is no market for sporters anymore. I know there are exceptions but exceptions are rare.

I have seen some of the most rare Mauser 98s with runes and codes that would sell for a minimum of around 2K in original condition.

Once sporterized, you will see these rare specimens on the auction sites rarely selling or selling for around $300 (If they are lucky) simply because the receiver had been drilled and tapped.

I can think of any one thing these rifles are good for and that is parts.
Over the years, I have purchased my share if sporters simply for the parts.
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Old May 22, 2014, 11:09 PM   #11
kilimanjaro
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I'd take my $500 to a gun show and get one or two original rifles, not these. You can get a really nice Lee-Enfield for $350-$400, you'll enjoy it a lot more.

If you buy these, you will never recoup the price.
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Old May 23, 2014, 01:50 AM   #12
mcz0804a
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Thanks everyone. I'm just gonna pass. My times probably better spent studying and learning then chasing after an easy first purchase.

Unfortunatley, up here in Minot we only have one LGS that sells a good selection of milsurp. But they've become so enthralled in soaking up the money from the oil fields that thier prices are WAY out of most peoples range and if you don't have money than they wont give you the time of day.

Thanks again, y'all. Ill just sit back and listen more.
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Old May 23, 2014, 10:32 AM   #13
tahunua001
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that's the way a lot of specialists are. whenever I do find a milsurp at a LGS they just want the most they could possibly squeeze from the rifle which is their right but when i go to a gun show it's the guys that specialize in milsurps that just make you want to flip their tables and walk away laughing at the prices that they want. there is one fellow that specializes in Japanese Arisakas who ruitinely asks double what they're worth and claims that it's less than what he has into them. another guy has had the same SVT40 for as long as I've been going to gun shows, every show he has raised the price another $100 and he has no clue why nobody is willing to buy it. they seem to think that time and emotional attachment have monetary values when it comes to these rifles and they don't. they have a set value based on condition, rarity, and originality/matching parts. it doesn't matter if you spent 2 weeks recoating the stock with period specific linseed oil and spent a month going over it with a Q-tip and a bottle of oil, that does not raise the value at all and most of those specialty guys just don't get that.

it's a bit of a poopshoot but ordering online is your best bet for a good deal. if you shop around you can get a good deal on guns you just have to get really good at reading picctures. I usually have about 50/50 great deals/poor deal ratios when ordering online.

I've ordered a mosin nagant sight unseen that turned out to be quite beautiful in person.

I've ordered a type I arisaka that was solid rust underneath the wood stock.

I've ordered a 114 year old swedish mauser that has better bluing than some new rifles in my collection.
I've traded a great condition springfield 1903 for an alright condition remington model 1917 that was advertized as great and all of the pics of it were strategically taken to avoid heavily rusted areas.

I've traded a restored 1903A4 sniper rifle for two of the most gorgeous Arisakas I've ever seen in person.

I've paid bought a model 1895 mannlicher carbine with large chunks missing from the stock and heavily worn bluing for $50 over market value.

however I have been happy with all of these purchases and trades in the long run because even though I could have gotten better locally, I would have spent a lot more money in the process and at the end of the day, I'm still shooting.
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Last edited by tahunua001; May 23, 2014 at 10:42 AM.
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Old May 23, 2014, 12:34 PM   #14
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Also, don't ignore the want ads.m OR the flea market/garage sales.

A friend of mine picked up a very nice 03 Springfield at a yard sale, for $40, as it was just "an old army rifle". Right next to it was a .22 semi auto they wanted $100 for....

A few years ago, through the Giant Nickel want ads, I got a very nice WWII SMLE w/spike bayonet (No4? I always get the numbers mixed up), AND a nearly pristine M38 Moisin Nagant carbine, from an older gent, for $150 for the pair.

Also, its nice to have friends who collect guns, especially if they don't really collect what you do. One friend of mine was "cleaning out his closet" and "sold me" a 1917 Webley Mk VII, a 1917 SMLE, a 1917 M96 Swedish Mauser and a 1942 SVT 40 Tokarev for a whopping $425 total for all.

While prices have risen (what hasn't?) there are still deals out there, but you won't find much in the way of a good deal from people who deal in guns for a living. Nowdays they nearly all seem to think that yesterdays surplus junk is made of gold, and the actual good stuff is diamonds & platinium from the prices they ask.
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