Home defense rounds

[xMINORxTHREATx]

Dropping the BG, cool.

Dropping the BG, and my TV. DANG it but cool. Least he didn't steal it.

Dropping the BG, tv, and my 8 year old niece? I wouldn't be able to live with myself after that.

[Alden]

#4 buckshot is .24 caliber in diameter, 20 grains in weight, and there are usually just shy of 50 pellets in a 12 gauge shell.

At 10 yards there's not much that wont stop, but at longer ranges it's much less lethal and less liable to penetrate through walls. Not saying it won't penetrate, it will, but just with less energy due to having much less mass than 00 buck.

[ET.]

I've heard this tune before. It seems that every so often someone decides to elevate birdshot to an effective SD/HD round. There are way too many reports & studies about birdshot being ineffective in self defense situations for me to even consider loading my 12 gauge with it. I occasionly use my Judge for SD also. Some people even think that bird shot is effecive from that gun also. There is no way that I would trust my life to 12 gauge birdshot must less from a 410 handgun. The only situation I could think of using birdshot from a pistol would be a carjacking where the perp is shot in the face at point blank range. Just saying...

[xMINORxTHREATx]

I don't want to use birdshot either, like I said, I put a leather jacket over a block of ballistic gel and only like 5 pellets made it through, and even then it was subcutaneous.

Do they make a low brass buck shot?

[rantingredneck]

Two things and I'll shut up:

1) If a round is an effective stopper of hostilities it will absolutely penetrate walls and kill innocents if fired toward walls with innocents behind them. Know your field of fire. For apartment dwellers and homeowners with split floor plans this is a particular concern.

2) Low velocity slugs can actually penetrate farther than higher velocity slugs. Less deformation of the slug due to reduced velocity allows it to penetrate more, not less. The low velocity slugs are designed with reduced recoil in mind, not reduced penetration.

Personally I use Federal LE12700 (see typical pattern in pic below), but my circumstances are not yours. I live in a home where all bedrooms are on one side of the house and all likely points of entry are on the other.


12 yard pattern from 20" IC choked 870. 12 yards is the longest shot I could concievably take inside my home.

I suppose that was more like 3 or 4 things.....

[xMINORxTHREATx]

My shotgun isn't choked, and that sounds like a viable point there RantingRedneck (about the low velocity slugs)

What about the disc rounds? I've seen a few of them with disc shaped lead. How well do they penetrate. Seems to me they wouldn't penetrate well through walls because of their shape. But what about a soft target? Any one know?

[rantingredneck]

No idea on the disc rounds, but with Federal LE12700 the choke is fairly irrelevant. The flite control wad does most of the patterning for you. Tight patterns even with a cyl bore barrel.

EDIT: This is a somewhat crappy cell phone pic, but the best I could come up with from a cyl bore 18" 870.



The pattern from LE12700 is circled in red COM. Shot at 25 yds.

The holes in the head area of the target are from 3 Federal Tru-Ball standard velocity slugs fired at the same distance. Shot as fast as I could cycle the pump and resettle on target. Probably 1-1.5 seconds between shots max.

2nd EDIT: Don't laugh at my multicolored 870........ It was an Asheville PD trade in that I replaced stocks and added a green extension I had laying in the parts bin. Also added a Marbles tritium bead (really liking that so far).

[Dobe]

Here is a link from Shotgunworld.com, which may make some reconsider small shot for defense, especially if your assailant is wearing a heavy leather jacker or a thick wool coat.

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/view...p?f=7&t=109958

[xMINORxTHREATx]

Dobe, are you suggesting birdshot is still a viable option?

[Dobe]

Just the opposite. I don't believe birdshot (8s, 7 1/2, and even 6's) have the penetration needed for HD.

[xMINORxTHREATx]

Ok, just checking. lol

I wish I would have taken pictures when I did my leather jacket test.

Maybe I will do it again this spring and post some pics of it.

[4runnerman]

I agree with minor to a point... Birdshot to a person 6 feet away with just a t shirt on will be very deadly,put him further away with a jacket on and story is different.
bridshot at close range to raw flesh would be very,very deadly. I have shot birdshot at say 6 feet into a 2 x 4 and it totally destroys the wood into splinters. At that range to a human i have no doubt that there would be no reason to chamber a second round,i don,t care how big or strong he is. So as silly as this seems i think it could also depend on the time of year. I don't see (around here) to many people wearing a heavy leather jacket in the summer whens it's 85 degrees outside. There was a story not long ago about a 13 or so old girl in Montana that meet 2 burglers in her house. She meet the first one about 2 steps outside her bedroom door.What they did not know is she was a vetrain compitition shooter. Short of the story is first one at about 10 feet one shot to the midsection,Dead on the spot,second one got it in the groin area and made it about 10 feet out the door before he died. Now the story did not specifically say what shot was in the gun,But i would have to assume it was run of the mill game or target load shot in there. Bird shot is a different story im sure,but do not think for a second that if you get hit unprotected with it at 6 or 8 feet that you are going to walk away from it and brush the sand off outside. You will be walking toward the bright white light asking for forgivness. The massive amout of tissue damage is going to shut you down very fast. It will be the faster blood donation you have ever made.

As for shooting it at 25 yards at someone,UMMM do you live in a Mansion?.
I have a 3000 sq foot house,My farthest shot i could take in this house is maybe 25 feet.Most senarios would be 10 feet or less. The concern of hitting others is still there,that is a given with any gun single projectile or multipal.

[spacecoast]

Birdshot at 20 feet from a 18.5" barrel... it's not going to feel good, but there's no way I would trust this pattern to bring down someone in heavy clothing or leather.

On the other hand, 00 buck at 20 feet is devastating (2 shots shown). Each hole is a 55 grain .33" diameter ball at well over 1000 fps, and there are nine of them in each shot -

[xMINORxTHREATx]

"faster blood donation ever made"

I agree. If someone breaks into my house shirtless, birdshot may just do the trick.

But I honestly think even a heavy sweatshirt would minimize the damage. Like I said, my test with an el-cheapo leather jacket only had a handfull of pellets penetrate less than 1/4 of an inch. I'm sure it would leave a massive bruise but nothing more serious than that. Might be better off with high-brass BEAN BAG rounds.

[Dobe]

Personally, I would use #4 buckshot or larger.

[KingEdward]

for HD, I keep my mossberg loaded with 5 rounds of #4 heavy shot.

[4runnerman]

Agreed Minor.One more thing i need to point out,The difference between leather and a shirt in like the difference between steel and sheetrock.
Leather is a very,very tough material. I watched a show once CSI i beleaive(not sure if the show is credibal or not).But they put a leather jacket on a maniquine and had a elderly lady try to stab it with a knife. With all her might she could not make the knife sink in. This is why leather is used in Motorcycle jackets,shoes,ect,ect, It is tough and saves the body in certain cases from damage. So i put to you any one not wearing a leather jacket getting hit by birdshot at 10 feet or less,Lets just say he won't be an issue a second time to any one else. Leather is the whole issue in this senario.
More from people on this forum i have read,,A 45 ACP at 25 yards will sometimes not penitrate a leather jacket, True or not i could not tell you.

[Double Naught Spy]

Agreed Minor.One more thing i need to point out,The difference between leather and a shirt in like the difference between steel and sheetrock. Leather is a very,very tough material.

There are all sorts of leathers and thicknesses. You can't classify leather singly anymore than you can classify the shooting skills of all shooters as being superb. There are good shooters and bad, fast and slow.

I watched a show once CSI i beleaive(not sure if the show is credibal or not).

CSI isn't real. It is a fictional show. CSI will tell you stuff about forensics like Call of Duty will teach you about firearms and lethality.

But they put a leather jacket on a maniquine and had a elderly lady try to stab it with a knife. With all her might she could not make the knife sink in.

She could not make it sink in because that is what the script said, not because she wasn't physically capable. There is a lot more penetrative power at the point of a knife from an old lady than from an individual birdshot pellet.

This is why leather is used in Motorcycle jackets,shoes,ect,ect, It is tough and saves the body in certain cases from damage.

Yes, some leathers are very good for protecting the body from abrasion damage, aka road rash, but certainly not all leathers.

More from people on this forum i have read,,A 45 ACP at 25 yards will sometimes not penitrate a leather jacket, True or not i could not tell you.

While I am sure it may have happened, I am also sure that there have been instances where rifle rounds didn't penetrate somebody's leather something somewhere, but that doesn't mean leather is good ballistic protection.

[4runnerman]

All true Double.Which just furthers my point,Any one thinking birdshot from a shotgun at 6 or 8 feet with no jacket is not leathal is just fooling themselfs.

[Dobe]

The problem is that you don't know what your assailant will be wearing. And also, you have to penetrate not only his clothing, but his sternum, ribs, or shull. Bird shot, is not a good HD load.

[KingEdward]

Bird shot is for birds.

[4runnerman]

Come on people, Im not going to get dragged into this any farther. I use a 45 with a 300 gn manstopper custom made bullet. Facts are facts. I shoot you with a 12 gauge at 6 feet with birdshot,YOU ARE~DEAD,,No if ands or buts about it. Letsget real here ok. It is not something i would choose to use in the house,but that don't change the facts.

[Dobe]

6 feet is about the aveage height of a man. What happens at 20 - 30 feet (not an unusual distance in a house)? Do you feel as confident?

[4runnerman]

What happens at 20 - 30 feet (not an unusual distance in a house)?

I ask you again do you live in a mansion? 20 to 30 feet..Step it out once.Ya maybe if he is up against the wall on one side of house and you are up against the other. Most likley sanerio is probebly 10 feet or less. At entrance to bedroom,at bottom of steps, at end of hallway,ect,ect. At 20 to 30 feet you better have a very lagit reason for shooting him.Unless he also has a gun you might find yourself in the klinker. With a knife or bat or such,Your plea of my life was in iminate danger is going down the toilet along with your chances of not going to jail. Look in my humble opinion a shot gun is a poor choice for self defense in the first place. Long barrel with to many restrictions in a house to make a fast and clean sweep for aiming. To much potential for collatral damage. I would hate to be stuck in a hallway with one coming from behind and one from in front. Each to their own i guess.

[rantingredneck]

As for shooting it at 25 yards at someone,UMMM do you live in a Mansion?.

Nope, 12 yards is the longest concievable shot I could take inside my home. (Refer to post 30 where I said that the first time).