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February 14, 2005, 07:58 AM | #51 |
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Here is the text that goes along with the picture
http://www.ammolab.myhomepage.com/page/page/1632847.htm I could not agree more. Size CAN matter...but not at the expense of accuracy and ability A good comparison is a .357 snubby and a 9mm autoloader. Lots of "power" in that .357 revolver, but it is useless IF you cannot control it well enough to unload all 5 shots quickly and accurately...and if you fumble through a reload when more than 5 are required. I personally would rather have 10 rds of 9mm. But neither answer is "right" for everyone in every situation FD.....one milimeter :barf: ..( a stretch IMHO ...but I don't watch ER ) |
February 14, 2005, 09:06 AM | #52 |
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So maybe you are the best shot in the whole entire world with your weapon... but what if somebody attacks you from behind or kicks your leg out and breaks your knee. You hit your head and become a bit woozie and aren't seeing absolutly straight. You draw your weapon, but have a hard time seeing your sights exactly, or exactly where you need to hit your attacker with that one round that you can get off before he probably jumps on you and continues to beat you. Is your shot going to be perfect if your lieing down on your side, shooting with either strong or weak hand, having a hard time seeing your sights exactly? I dont think so. Being that you most likely wont get that perfect shot off, do you want to sink a 9mm into the guy or a .45?
Everybody says shot placement shot placement. If you assured me every situation would allow for a perfect acessment of the target, perfect time to draw my weapon, and the right amount of time to align my sights, then why dont i carry a .22? because i can probably shoot my SW model 41 the best! I'll just have amazing shot placement and hit the guy between the eyes! It comes down to using the caliber that is as large as you can handle and carry efficiently. You could be the best shot in the world, but if something goes wrong and you can't get off that perfect shot, that extra few milimeters of expansion may be your ticket to tomorrow. |
February 14, 2005, 12:05 PM | #53 |
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Actually, just hiting the spinal column (the bony portion) with a heavy enough blow will stop nerve functioning for a while. Think of the 'bumping your funny bone' type action. Nerves do not respond well to being banged, bumped, or bruised. Function may return after some period of time from seconds to minutes to weeks or even months.
Severing the spinal cord is permanent since so far the splicing techniques used on smaller nerve bundles will not fit in the body space available. |
February 14, 2005, 07:00 PM | #54 |
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this is SO boring................
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Nemo Me Impune Lacesset "The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.".........Ronald Reagan |
February 14, 2005, 09:16 PM | #55 | |||
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February 14, 2005, 10:29 PM | #56 | |||
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Hey john, do you carry a .22 caliber gun?
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Then again i did say in my original post that you would only have time for one shot to be fired... |
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February 14, 2005, 10:32 PM | #57 | |
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February 14, 2005, 10:47 PM | #58 | |||
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Besides, you might not be up against someone like me--who can make good COM hits on a silhouette at 7 yards while shooting my 9mm pistol so that it sounds like an UZI (according to the guy in the shooting lane next to me )--you might be up against some guy who can REALLY shoot! |
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February 15, 2005, 12:15 AM | #59 | |
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How does it go again? Mindset, Tactics, Skill, then Equipment. Funny how equipment is at the bottom of the list, isn't it?
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FWIW, I currently carry .40 S&W for CCW or duty. I switched primarily because that is what the Sheriff's Office issues (Glock 22). |
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February 15, 2005, 12:39 AM | #60 |
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Mr.Drebin
Just as a matter of reply to you . The area I was refering to was Flint,Michigan.I don't need to read a report or study just the newspaper.Other options are readily available on the streets.I do come the Detroit area and what you say about that area is true.Once again--no big point-just fact.
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February 15, 2005, 11:11 AM | #61 |
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Sigh...how do these ALWAYS turn into a caliber war
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February 15, 2005, 03:45 PM | #62 | |
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DanV1317 the scenario that you listed in your post has to be one of the silliest things I've heard about caliber effectiveness. Personally if somebody attacked me from behind and broke my knee and injuring my head then I would have bigger problems than what caliber I have at the moment. You seem to be implying that the assailant is unarmed. You will have a hard time defending yourself in court for shooting an unarmed man. In the vast majority of self defense shooting situations as JohnKSa pointed out, the most important aspect to surviving it is to hit your enemy more times in a vital area than he can hit you, not how much bigger your gun is. I'm in no way saying to carry a .32 or .25. Adequate penetration is very important. Calibers less than 9mm have been proven to be ineffective. The bottom line is that there isn't enough difference between 9mm, .40, and .45 to create a significant advantage in a defensive shooting situation.
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February 15, 2005, 06:45 PM | #63 | |
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February 15, 2005, 09:38 PM | #64 |
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Carlos,
It's impossible to rule out the possibility that some folks might shoot better when the recoil gets heavier (I did say "almost certainly"), but the vast majority of people do not. If this were not true, there would be no rules in the speed shooting sports (such as IPSC) to penalize lighter recoiling calibers. |
February 16, 2005, 06:57 AM | #65 |
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CJE, first off, we aren't talking about "other problems". I'm talking about the decision you must make to draw and fire upon this guy attacking you. You had time to only get one shot off. Do you want a 9mm or a 45 with a tad more expansion. That expansion could be the difference between hitting a vital organ or nerve to stop the guy and it not hitting anything important. So yes, one shot would be a caliber war. You have to be a good marksman. I'm not saying i'm going to carry a .45 and never practice, as opposed to carrying a 9mm and having to practice because it's a smaller caliber. You just picked apart the situation which i didn't sit here for half an hour and plan out, just wrote it up real quick to try to give somewhat of an idea for my question or statement or whatever it was that i was talking about like 3 days ago. This is my last post on this thread.
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February 16, 2005, 07:51 PM | #66 |
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Dan,
The bottom line is that the people who have touted the .45 (or any other handgun caliber) as a spectacular "stopper" have been doing so without any hard evidence for their position. Because many of these people are in positions that render them trustworthy to the gun community, their OPINIONS have long been accepted as fact. We're seeing in Iraq that even a torso hit from a centerfire rifle doesn't guarantee a stop--not even MULTIPLE hits. That kind of puts quibbling about the minor differences in handgun calibers into perspective. Given that not even a rifle bullet has the oomph to take a person down with a less than perfect hit, it doesn't make sense to pick a handgun caliber under the false impression that a slightly larger bullet will make a difference. Go for capacity, go for shootability, go for minimum recoil recovery time. If you can make good center-of-mass hits, do it repeatedly and really fast you will have a much better chance of surviving. Anything that cuts down your speed, your accuracy or the number of shots you can take is not a good thing and could cost you your life. I'm not going to set a caliber minimum, but I will reiterate that it is important to shoot something that has the capability to penetrate through and through on an ideal shot (straight on shot) made on the average human. That's important because you may not get an ideal shot and you will need that penetration to get to the vitals if you don't. I don't think rimfires are a good idea because they tend to be less reliable than centerfire. |
February 16, 2005, 08:28 PM | #67 |
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Amen Brother!
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February 17, 2005, 07:24 AM | #68 |
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How many people who are in the business of killing (or at least dropping) other people for a living would prefer the .223 round over the .30-06 or .308? Or the .30 carbine over the .30-06? As a WWII guy about that one...Not a truck driver, but someone who's actually put a good deal of meat on the table.
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February 17, 2005, 07:26 AM | #69 |
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Frank...buddy...let it go man
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February 17, 2005, 09:10 PM | #70 |
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Frank,
Read Audie Murphy's autobiography. He preferred to carry the Carbine over the Garand in at least some circumstances. I think he qualifies as someone who shot people with multiple calibers and also as someone who knew what he was doing with a firearm. I know for certain he used .30-06, .30 carbine, 50BMG and 8mm and .45ACP. The point is that at least in some cases, Mr. Murphy felt that the quick handling and high capacity of the carbine was preferable to the punch of the Garand. In another place he borrows a Thompson (pistol caliber) and uses it in preference of a rifle for one application. |
February 18, 2005, 06:52 AM | #71 | |
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February 18, 2005, 07:07 AM | #72 | |
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The military's standard round is a 9mm, so does that make them right? They are the only people in the business of killing in this country. Some of the special forces in the country carry different calibers, but the 9mm is by far the most popular. And if the police are all good judges of a bullets performance, why do they disagree so much? Why do so many officers carry different calibers? Are the ones who carry 9mm all wrong? Are the .45cal people just believing the old information and living on hype? Are the .40cal and 10mm carriers just losers who are staking their lives on unproven rounds? No, they all are based on preferance and compromise, and not one round can truly be considerd better than the next. |
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February 18, 2005, 03:38 PM | #73 | |
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February 18, 2005, 04:18 PM | #74 |
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Actually the newer 30 carbine loadings are quite effective on humans
The older ones were not as bad as they were made out to be More "gun rag" ballistics But stop me if I am wrong....we were discussing handguns Pitiful popguns that they are Police officers "dropped" a lot of bad guys with their .38's, which are (arguably) at the lower end of the effective caliber range. Bottom line...anyone that depends solely on caliber to "get the job done" is fooling themselves, but hopefully nobody else! All handguns are a compromise...if we knew we were going to a gunfight we would all (almost all) carry rifles. So, assuming you use at least minimally effective ammunition...arguing about the caliber is silly. |
February 18, 2005, 04:30 PM | #75 |
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...
que ball whizzed at assailant or baseball bat there would be more energy than a .45 and with the bat you never run out of ammunition.
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