Using Barnes bullets with other bullet data?

.284 · February 13, 2012, 03:29 PM

My reloading partner wanted to load some Barnes 125 gr bullets last night and didn't have any of the powders listed in the Barnes manual. His thought was that he could uses some of the powders he did have listed in his Sierra manual as long as he followed the 125 gr recipe. Not that I think this is of great importance but, he is reloading for his 357 mag. The reason I say that is because I believe my statement is going to apply to all Barnes bullets regardless of caliber.

I told him that he was nuts to assume that he could swap data based upon the Barnes being all copper. I realize that 125 grs of bullet weigh the same as 125 grs of feathers but that doesn't make things equal in the world. In other words 125 gr Barnes is a much longer bullet than say a 125 gr Sierra JHC. In fact, the Barnes bullet was even longer than 158 gr Sierra. I think if he were to stuff that long sucker in a case filled with W296 or IMR4227 he would be compressing the heck out of the powder even at a starting load.

I guess I just don't like the idea of what he was doing. If he was swapping data from Sierra while using a Speer or Hornady of equal grain weight then I would say no problem.....start low and work up.

What say you? Are my concerns legit?

Other than using Quick Load, which we don't have, is there a way to figure out how to use these big honking bullets with other powders not listed by Barnes?

Brian Pfleuger · February 13, 2012, 03:32 PM

It is not safe to swap load data of bullets with DISsimilar construction. The force it takes to engrave the rifling into the bullet can be dramatically different.

A phone call to Barnes or the powder company would probably get you the data.

Or, a little groveling toward some of the fine folks that DO have QuickLoad might help too.

AllenJ · February 13, 2012, 04:08 PM

Your concerns are legit and your analysis is right on. Since Barnes bullets are longer than bullets that use lead there is more bullet surface in contact with the rifling. That means more friction than with a standard bullet of equal weight.

.284 · February 13, 2012, 04:39 PM

You guys bring up another good point, the copper used in Barnes is pure and jacketed bullets use gilded metal.......so another difference besides sixe.

Hey Peetz.........grovel grovel grovel......I know you have QuickLoad.

Brian Pfleuger · February 13, 2012, 06:15 PM

I'd be glad to help you but my QuickLoad computer died and somehow or another I lost the CD before I got a new computer.

I've been groveling for data, myself.

Mike / Tx · February 13, 2012, 06:16 PM

Can't say with handgun bullet, but when I swapped from standard C&C bullets over to Barnes in my rifles I usually dropped the load by at least 2 full grains, and worked back up a little at a time. This was also using the original X and not the later TSX ro similar banded ones.

As for the handgun bullets, yea your right on the money for your concern. As mentioned the OAL differences alone might be the deciding factor.

mehavey · February 13, 2012, 08:22 PM

Bad idea

Barnes bullet construction and length make for a bad translation from other bullets in other loading manuals.

Case(s) in Point for that 6-inch/357Mag the OP mentions:

Speer 125 TMJ
Alliant 2400/15.7gr
OAL:1.59"
Vel: 1,545fps
Press: 31,000psi

Ditto all the above except use
Barnes 125 TAC-XP
Vel: 1,816fps
Press: 59,000 psi

The OP's friend might get the hint by noting first that he couldn't even come close to getting 15.7gr of 2400 in the case -- with that Barnes bullet at that OAL -- to start with.

.

MR-7-45 · February 18, 2012, 09:18 PM

Barnes bulllets have a different construction, but depending on the bullet may or may not have greater surface friction than other bullets. Barnes bullets labs use real pressure barrels under real conditions. I would only use Barnes reloading data with Barnes bullet. See my post of January 17, 2012 Titled "Conflicting Powder Charge Information". Subsequently, I contacted Barnes to get their information and contacted a lead technician. Their load data comes from tests in their lab up to 60,000 psi.

"Your concerns are legit and your analysis is right on. Since Barnes bullets are longer than bullets that use lead there is more bullet surface in contact with the rifling. That means more friction than with a standard bullet of equal weight. "

Some of the Barnes bullets have grooves cut around the shank that actually reduces the amount of surface in contact with the barrel According to Barnes their construction creates less friction.

February 13, 2012, 03:29 PM	#1
.284 Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2009 Location: davison, michigan Posts: 665	Using Barnes bullets with other bullet data? My reloading partner wanted to load some Barnes 125 gr bullets last night and didn't have any of the powders listed in the Barnes manual. His thought was that he could uses some of the powders he did have listed in his Sierra manual as long as he followed the 125 gr recipe. Not that I think this is of great importance but, he is reloading for his 357 mag. The reason I say that is because I believe my statement is going to apply to all Barnes bullets regardless of caliber. I told him that he was nuts to assume that he could swap data based upon the Barnes being all copper. I realize that 125 grs of bullet weigh the same as 125 grs of feathers but that doesn't make things equal in the world. In other words 125 gr Barnes is a much longer bullet than say a 125 gr Sierra JHC. In fact, the Barnes bullet was even longer than 158 gr Sierra. I think if he were to stuff that long sucker in a case filled with W296 or IMR4227 he would be compressing the heck out of the powder even at a starting load. I guess I just don't like the idea of what he was doing. If he was swapping data from Sierra while using a Speer or Hornady of equal grain weight then I would say no problem.....start low and work up. What say you? Are my concerns legit? Other than using Quick Load, which we don't have, is there a way to figure out how to use these big honking bullets with other powders not listed by Barnes? __________________ Guns have only two enemies, rust and politicians! Deer are amazing creatures....so please don't burn the sauteed onions and I'll pass on the steak sauce, thank you.

February 13, 2012, 04:39 PM	#4
.284 Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2009 Location: davison, michigan Posts: 665	You guys bring up another good point, the copper used in Barnes is pure and jacketed bullets use gilded metal.......so another difference besides sixe. Hey Peetz.........grovel grovel grovel......I know you have QuickLoad. __________________ Guns have only two enemies, rust and politicians! Deer are amazing creatures....so please don't burn the sauteed onions and I'll pass on the steak sauce, thank you.

February 13, 2012, 06:15 PM	#5
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	I'd be glad to help you but my QuickLoad computer died and somehow or another I lost the CD before I got a new computer. I've been groveling for data, myself. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

February 13, 2012, 06:16 PM	#6
Mike / Tx Senior Member Join Date: April 8, 2000 Posts: 2,101	Can't say with handgun bullet, but when I swapped from standard C&C bullets over to Barnes in my rifles I usually dropped the load by at least 2 full grains, and worked back up a little at a time. This was also using the original X and not the later TSX ro similar banded ones. As for the handgun bullets, yea your right on the money for your concern. As mentioned the OAL differences alone might be the deciding factor. __________________ LAter, Mike / TX

February 13, 2012, 08:22 PM	#7
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,894	Bad idea Barnes bullet construction and length make for a bad translation from other bullets in other loading manuals. Case(s) in Point for that 6-inch/357Mag the OP mentions: Speer 125 TMJ Alliant 2400/15.7gr OAL:1.59" Vel: 1,545fps Press: 31,000psi Ditto all the above except use Barnes 125 TAC-XP Vel: 1,816fps Press: 59,000 psi The OP's friend might get the hint by noting first that he couldn't even come close to getting 15.7gr of 2400 in the case -- with that Barnes bullet at that OAL -- to start with. . Last edited by mehavey; February 13, 2012 at 08:44 PM.

February 13, 2012, 03:32 PM	#2
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	It is not safe to swap load data of bullets with DISsimilar construction. The force it takes to engrave the rifling into the bullet can be dramatically different. A phone call to Barnes or the powder company would probably get you the data. Or, a little groveling toward some of the fine folks that DO have QuickLoad might help too.

February 13, 2012, 04:08 PM	#3
AllenJ Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2009 Location: Northern California Posts: 1,766	Your concerns are legit and your analysis is right on. Since Barnes bullets are longer than bullets that use lead there is more bullet surface in contact with the rifling. That means more friction than with a standard bullet of equal weight.

February 18, 2012, 09:18 PM	#8
MR-7-45 Member Join Date: October 4, 2005 Location: Central Texas Posts: 70	Barnes bulllets have a different construction, but depending on the bullet may or may not have greater surface friction than other bullets. Barnes bullets labs use real pressure barrels under real conditions. I would only use Barnes reloading data with Barnes bullet. See my post of January 17, 2012 Titled "Conflicting Powder Charge Information". Subsequently, I contacted Barnes to get their information and contacted a lead technician. Their load data comes from tests in their lab up to 60,000 psi. "Your concerns are legit and your analysis is right on. Since Barnes bullets are longer than bullets that use lead there is more bullet surface in contact with the rifling. That means more friction than with a standard bullet of equal weight. " Some of the Barnes bullets have grooves cut around the shank that actually reduces the amount of surface in contact with the barrel According to Barnes their construction creates less friction. __________________ MR-7-45 Life Member NRA & VFW I load my own. Last edited by MR-7-45; February 19, 2012 at 10:24 AM.