Hi Standard revolver locking up.

malachi · July 16, 2013, 09:05 PM

I have an old Hi Standard R-103 that locks up about every 5 or 6 shots when fired double action (that does vary however). The cylinder spins freely when open or closed and the trigger will pull through ok when it is open. But close it and that's a different story. Also, there are no problems whatsoever in the single action mode.
I'm stumped, does anyone have any ideals?
Thanks

James K · July 16, 2013, 11:13 PM

When the cylinder spins in one of that series of guns, it usually means trouble with the spring that powers the cylinder stop. The crane and cylinder are removed for cleaning by pushing in on the link pivot pin. That pin is hollow in the back and fits around the cylinder stop spring which in turn fits over an arm on the cylinder stop. When that spring gets lost, bent, or kinked, the cylinder stop won't work.

That is not the only possible problem, but it is the most common.

Jim

Dixie Gunsmithing · July 17, 2013, 03:41 AM

What Jim said, along with the possibility of a dent or burr on the ratchet on the rear of the cylinder. Also, the lower grip portion of the frame can crack up behind the trigger guard, and throw things out of tolerance, so it will cause problems. It is more of a rarity though.

James K · July 17, 2013, 10:54 AM

Actually, the ratchet on the H-S revolvers rarely gives trouble because it is milled into the extractor, so it is below the surface and not nearly as vulnerable as a ratchet with teeth on the outside. It is a pretty good system, though AFAIK no one else has used it except one copy of the H-S Sentinel.

Jim

Dixie Gunsmithing · July 17, 2013, 01:07 PM

Where I've seen the ratchet burred up was from the owner dropping the entire pistol, with the cylinder swung out, or they dropped the cylinder, when changing them out from LR to Magnum, and vice versa on the convertibles. That is about the only thing I can think of for it to do it intermittently, besides the spring in mention, and possibly the hand loose on its pivot, or maybe a weak hand spring, allowing the hand to spring back out of the rack.

I would swing the cylinder out, and watch for the cylinder stop to drop down on SA trigger pull, and make sure it stays down for a bit before popping back up, then pull the trigger in DA, and watch it. If it does not, take out the cylinder, and check the spring. If it seems to be working right, I'd look at the hand operation and then the ratchet for any burrs. The worst case could be the nose on the trigger, or the ledge cut into the cylinder stop being worn down, so the cylinder stop is slipping off the end of the trigger too soon, and staying in the notch on the cylinder.

Anyway, Numrich has that spring on hand for around $5.00 plus shipping.

malachi · July 17, 2013, 08:47 PM

To be a little more specific, the trigger (double action mode) will have traveled approx. 1/3 its required distance to fire when all locks up. Sometimes I can let off and pull a second time and it will work but more often than not the cylinder must be opened and closed or it has to be cocked single action. Then I'm good for a few more before doing it again.

Dixie Gunsmithing · July 17, 2013, 09:28 PM

malachi,

During that 1/3 trigger travel, had the cylinder began to turn, and how much?

The reason why I'm asking is, there is a delay in the cylinder turning, as the trigger is pulled, because the cylinder stop has to be pulled down out of the notch in the cylinder before the hand starts turning the cylinder around. If it hasn't began turning yet, then it is the cylinder stop not working all the time.

If that be the case, swing the cylinder out, and take a small punch, or even a round toothpick, and push it into the hole in the bottom front of the frame, mashing the plunger in it inward. Then, pull the cylinder and crane out to the side, remove the punch, but keep your finger over the hole. Capture the plunger and spring in the hole, and make sure the spring isn't bent, etc. If good, place both back in the hole, and make sure the rear of the spring goes over the pin you see in the back of the hole. Then, depress this again, and place the crane back into its slot in the frame, and once in as far as it can go, pull the punch out, while mashing the crane the rest of the way into the slot, so the plunger can go forward through the hole in the crane.

malachi · July 17, 2013, 10:33 PM

Did like you said Dixie, still locking up. Watching real close I see now that the cylinder stop is dropping when I start the trigger pull but pops back up before the cylinder has a chance to start turning. If I release the pressure and pulling a second time it usually works.

Dixie Gunsmithing · July 18, 2013, 07:33 AM

Did the cylinder stop spring, behind the crane plunger, look to be okay, and not have any bend in it, etc.?

If it was okay, it could be a case of the hands nose being worn down or rounded over, thus not reaching the cylinder ratchet when it should, and not starting to turn the cylinder in time, or the ledge on the cylinder stop worn down, so it slips off the trigger too soon, or the nose on the trigger that works on this ledge, or maybe even the hand spring allowing the hand to slip a little, and the stop pops back up before it can turn it.

My advice would be seek a gunsmith, as the revolver will most likely have to be torn down to find the problem. The Hi Standard revolvers are tricky getting back together, though they may come apart easy. You have to use a slave pin on some to do it, in order to hold it together for the hammer pin to be installed, and getting the hand in place has had many a person curse them. Even though it looks a little like a Colt, its totally different.

malachi · July 18, 2013, 11:51 AM

Thanks for the help Dixie, it appears it is the hand. It looks a little rounded to me. I will try to find someone to work on it.

Dixie Gunsmithing · July 19, 2013, 03:36 AM

If I recall, there are two styles to the Sentinel's cylinder ratchets, or how they were machined, which may mean two differently shaped hands. Your's will be a later version. Make sure you get the correct one, if it seems that it is what is wrong. There is a Hi Standard website a guy runs with most of the old parts catalogs on it, and you can find the correct part number from it, for the 103 series.

Main page:

http://www.histandard.info/manuals/

Sentinel:

http://www.histandard.info/manuals/hprevolvers/

July 16, 2013, 09:05 PM	#1
malachi Senior Member Join Date: May 6, 2005 Location: Arkansas Posts: 303	Hi Standard revolver locking up. I have an old Hi Standard R-103 that locks up about every 5 or 6 shots when fired double action (that does vary however). The cylinder spins freely when open or closed and the trigger will pull through ok when it is open. But close it and that's a different story. Also, there are no problems whatsoever in the single action mode. I'm stumped, does anyone have any ideals? Thanks

July 18, 2013, 07:33 AM	#9
Dixie Gunsmithing Moderator Emeritus Join Date: April 27, 2013 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,923	Did the cylinder stop spring, behind the crane plunger, look to be okay, and not have any bend in it, etc.? If it was okay, it could be a case of the hands nose being worn down or rounded over, thus not reaching the cylinder ratchet when it should, and not starting to turn the cylinder in time, or the ledge on the cylinder stop worn down, so it slips off the trigger too soon, or the nose on the trigger that works on this ledge, or maybe even the hand spring allowing the hand to slip a little, and the stop pops back up before it can turn it. My advice would be seek a gunsmith, as the revolver will most likely have to be torn down to find the problem. The Hi Standard revolvers are tricky getting back together, though they may come apart easy. You have to use a slave pin on some to do it, in order to hold it together for the hammer pin to be installed, and getting the hand in place has had many a person curse them. Even though it looks a little like a Colt, its totally different. Last edited by Dixie Gunsmithing; July 19, 2013 at 03:27 AM.

July 16, 2013, 11:13 PM	#2
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	When the cylinder spins in one of that series of guns, it usually means trouble with the spring that powers the cylinder stop. The crane and cylinder are removed for cleaning by pushing in on the link pivot pin. That pin is hollow in the back and fits around the cylinder stop spring which in turn fits over an arm on the cylinder stop. When that spring gets lost, bent, or kinked, the cylinder stop won't work. That is not the only possible problem, but it is the most common. Jim

July 17, 2013, 03:41 AM	#3
Dixie Gunsmithing Moderator Emeritus Join Date: April 27, 2013 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,923	What Jim said, along with the possibility of a dent or burr on the ratchet on the rear of the cylinder. Also, the lower grip portion of the frame can crack up behind the trigger guard, and throw things out of tolerance, so it will cause problems. It is more of a rarity though.

July 17, 2013, 10:54 AM	#4
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Actually, the ratchet on the H-S revolvers rarely gives trouble because it is milled into the extractor, so it is below the surface and not nearly as vulnerable as a ratchet with teeth on the outside. It is a pretty good system, though AFAIK no one else has used it except one copy of the H-S Sentinel. Jim

July 17, 2013, 01:07 PM	#5
Dixie Gunsmithing Moderator Emeritus Join Date: April 27, 2013 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,923	Where I've seen the ratchet burred up was from the owner dropping the entire pistol, with the cylinder swung out, or they dropped the cylinder, when changing them out from LR to Magnum, and vice versa on the convertibles. That is about the only thing I can think of for it to do it intermittently, besides the spring in mention, and possibly the hand loose on its pivot, or maybe a weak hand spring, allowing the hand to spring back out of the rack. I would swing the cylinder out, and watch for the cylinder stop to drop down on SA trigger pull, and make sure it stays down for a bit before popping back up, then pull the trigger in DA, and watch it. If it does not, take out the cylinder, and check the spring. If it seems to be working right, I'd look at the hand operation and then the ratchet for any burrs. The worst case could be the nose on the trigger, or the ledge cut into the cylinder stop being worn down, so the cylinder stop is slipping off the end of the trigger too soon, and staying in the notch on the cylinder. Anyway, Numrich has that spring on hand for around $5.00 plus shipping.

July 17, 2013, 08:47 PM	#6
malachi Senior Member Join Date: May 6, 2005 Location: Arkansas Posts: 303	To be a little more specific, the trigger (double action mode) will have traveled approx. 1/3 its required distance to fire when all locks up. Sometimes I can let off and pull a second time and it will work but more often than not the cylinder must be opened and closed or it has to be cocked single action. Then I'm good for a few more before doing it again.

July 17, 2013, 09:28 PM	#7
Dixie Gunsmithing Moderator Emeritus Join Date: April 27, 2013 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,923	malachi, During that 1/3 trigger travel, had the cylinder began to turn, and how much? The reason why I'm asking is, there is a delay in the cylinder turning, as the trigger is pulled, because the cylinder stop has to be pulled down out of the notch in the cylinder before the hand starts turning the cylinder around. If it hasn't began turning yet, then it is the cylinder stop not working all the time. If that be the case, swing the cylinder out, and take a small punch, or even a round toothpick, and push it into the hole in the bottom front of the frame, mashing the plunger in it inward. Then, pull the cylinder and crane out to the side, remove the punch, but keep your finger over the hole. Capture the plunger and spring in the hole, and make sure the spring isn't bent, etc. If good, place both back in the hole, and make sure the rear of the spring goes over the pin you see in the back of the hole. Then, depress this again, and place the crane back into its slot in the frame, and once in as far as it can go, pull the punch out, while mashing the crane the rest of the way into the slot, so the plunger can go forward through the hole in the crane.

July 17, 2013, 10:33 PM	#8
malachi Senior Member Join Date: May 6, 2005 Location: Arkansas Posts: 303	Did like you said Dixie, still locking up. Watching real close I see now that the cylinder stop is dropping when I start the trigger pull but pops back up before the cylinder has a chance to start turning. If I release the pressure and pulling a second time it usually works.

July 18, 2013, 11:51 AM	#10
malachi Senior Member Join Date: May 6, 2005 Location: Arkansas Posts: 303	Thanks for the help Dixie, it appears it is the hand. It looks a little rounded to me. I will try to find someone to work on it.

July 19, 2013, 03:36 AM	#11
Dixie Gunsmithing Moderator Emeritus Join Date: April 27, 2013 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,923	If I recall, there are two styles to the Sentinel's cylinder ratchets, or how they were machined, which may mean two differently shaped hands. Your's will be a later version. Make sure you get the correct one, if it seems that it is what is wrong. There is a Hi Standard website a guy runs with most of the old parts catalogs on it, and you can find the correct part number from it, for the 103 series. Main page: http://www.histandard.info/manuals/ Sentinel: http://www.histandard.info/manuals/hprevolvers/