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Old October 28, 2010, 06:57 PM   #1
Yoosta B. Blue
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.38 Special "Extended"

A couple of years ago I tinkered around a bit with loading up some .38 Special loads into .357 cases. "Why would you do that?", you might be thinking. Well, you know how when you shoot .38 Special ammo in a .357 revolver, you end up with that grungy, nasty "ring" inside each chamber. If you then try shooting some .357 Magnum rounds, some of them may not go all the way in, due to that ring of gunk that has been created.

I've recently traded for a stainless .357 revolver that is very clean and very nice. I decided that I'd like to keep those cylinders from getting all grungy from the .38 Special loads. So I went back to loading some .38 Special ammo, only I used .357 cases. I took some to the range the other day, and was delighted with the results! Just in my own thinking, I decided to call them "Extended" loads, due to the longer cases. You may think I'm nuts for doing this, but I'm lovin' 'em!

Happy shooting!

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Old October 28, 2010, 07:54 PM   #2
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There have been several threads in the past where others did similarly. Did you increase the powder load any to compensate for the added case volume?
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Old October 28, 2010, 08:11 PM   #3
Yoosta B. Blue
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Yes, I've boosted the charge weight by about 9% and that seems to be a very good one. I'm using 148 gr DEWC bullets and am seating them just about flush with the case mouth. Really is fun to shoot these!

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Old October 28, 2010, 09:37 PM   #4
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I do this also, for the very same reason you mentioned. But I still have over 1000 .38 rounds loaded that I will have to buy another pistol to shoot them out of.
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Old October 28, 2010, 09:47 PM   #5
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Hey YBB, have you checked the data on Hodgdons website? I had to look at it twice but for 231 powder and that bullet, the loading data is actually less in the 357 case than a 38 Spec. But considering the pressure is under 18,000, you'd have lots of room to go up. So, ya loading about 3.5 grs 231?
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Old October 29, 2010, 08:02 AM   #6
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Folks have been doing this for a long time, but I've never found the need. Granted, I have only two .357 Mag revolvers in my safe, but I've never found any difficulties with cleaning the cylinders/chambers and I've never found even the slightest amount of resistance when chambering a .357 Magnum -- and the bulk of my shooting from both is certainly .38 Special handloads and for the most part, dirty gummy smoky cast lead handloads.

From my corner, it's always been very much ado about nothing. I shoot 'em... I clean 'em... can't tell either way. Inside each chamber, it looks like the inside of a chamber. Maybe a keen eye can tell that someone has been shooting .38 Special through it, but since I have no problem with it and anticipate none, it's just not even on my radar until someone brings it up.

The 686 has been eating my lead bullet .38 Special handloads since 1988 and it keeps asking for more!
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Old October 29, 2010, 08:03 AM   #7
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Hey there, Loader9!

Good to see you again. I just now had a look at the Hodgdon load data and I concur with what you said. I loaded these test rounds with 3.3 gr of 231, but think they are a bit light. I'll boost that a tad for the next group of test rounds. (The ones I like the best so far were loaded with 3.0 gr of Bullseye.)

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Old October 29, 2010, 08:51 AM   #8
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I've contemplated doing the same with lightly loaded wadcutters but have yet to try it. Not for the sake of cleanliness, but to minimize the bullet jump distance to the forcing cone when target shooting and perhaps make the rounds a bit more accurate/consistent.

When I discussed this with some fellow target shooters, one guy reminded me that there are no "magnum" rounds allowed at our range and that would be against the rules. Sheesh!
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Old October 29, 2010, 09:00 AM   #9
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I ended up using low-powered .357 hand loads instead of .38 specials in my 5 inch 686 because I could not find a .38 special load that would shoot well. I was not concerned about deposits in the cylinder, just accuracy.
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Old October 29, 2010, 09:03 AM   #10
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I'm still pretty new to reloading, but this is what I've been doing. I load "special" pressure/velocity loads in both .357 and .44 mag cases for my magnum revolvers. The further advantage is that I can take advantage of the intermediate range between the hottest "specials" and the starting "magnum" loads. That's a nice area to play in. By this point, I've traded away all my "special" brass, and only have magnum cases on hand.
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Old October 29, 2010, 09:05 AM   #11
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I have been using .357 cases for lighter .38 special loads for a while and gave away all my 38 cases. For me, it was simpler to have one case to work with, rather than two cases with similar charges.
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Old October 29, 2010, 09:46 AM   #12
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Sevens Wrote:
Quote:
From my corner, it's always been very much ado about nothing. I shoot 'em... I clean 'em... can't tell either way. Inside each chamber, it looks like the inside of a chamber.
Sevens, I do not want you talking to my wife! I really want another revolver and I think a .38 Special would fill the bill nicely.

I clean each gun after firing and at least once a month if it has not been fired. I have one that does have the carbon rings and it seems to give it some class.
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Old October 29, 2010, 10:04 AM   #13
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Gents, I appreciate all the thoughts and insights on this subject. This may well be one of those "whatever floats your boat" kind of things. The idea of loading only .357 brass really appeals to me and that's where I'm headed in my reloading regimens. I recognize that others may see it as something not needed...

As soon as I use up about 400 primed .38 Special casings, I'll be on my way!

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Old October 29, 2010, 11:42 AM   #14
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While not "necessary", I think it's a good idea and I reload Specials in Mag cases. It just adds to the versitality of reloading! When, on occations that I fire Specials in Magnum guns I just chuck a bore brush in my battery drill and scrub the cylinders to remove the "gunk' ring. Just a few seconds usually does the job...
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Old October 29, 2010, 10:37 PM   #15
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I have a couple of .357's that haven't chambered a .357 cartridge in years. Many thousands of 38's fired in the pair. Just dropped some factory .357's into the most heavily used of the pair, a PPC Open gun. Dropped right in. Probably first in this cylinder, first in 20+ years for the gun. No test fire session, neighbors might be sleeping.
A little history lesson; the 357 was devoloped as a high power .38 cartridge for police officers. The idea was to give the officers on the street a potent "carry" cartridge (.357 Remington magnum) and a more comfortable "practice" cartridge (.38 Special), both fired in the same medium or small framed revolver. Nowadays cops practice and qualify with full-power loads but .38's still work fine in .357 revolvers.
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Old October 30, 2010, 07:20 AM   #16
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When I was contemplating my first ever handgun purchase, I couldn't help but notice was 90% of the cops at my local sportsman's club range were using every Saturday morning at their PPC shoots. Most of them were shooting the 586 and 686. All of them were shooting swaged hollow base wadcutters in .38 Special brass. Most of them loaded their own, some of them used Federal Match ammo.

I suppose it's possible that a couple guys were shooting .38 Special revolvers, but I wasn't aware of any of them.

I certainly don't think there is anything wrong with the practice*, I just don't see the need for my purposes.

(*--though I will lay awake at night about all the poor .357 Magnum marked rounds that never get the chance to live out their true DNA makeup and identity as they chamber up, ready to breathe fire and yet only get to exhale a little mousefart load... j/k)
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Old October 30, 2010, 09:04 AM   #17
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Accuracy At Risk

DANGER Warning

I assume everyone knows that when you switch from .38 Special to .357 Mag rounds (or .44 Special to .44 Mag, for that matter) that IF you feel any chambering resistance you should not fire the round. Choking the case mouth with lead will raise peak pressure of the magnum load by making the bullet harder to release. The result can be catastrophic cylinder failure.


Hodgdon data

The Hodgdon data for .38/.357 for 231/HP38 are clearly reversed. A look at their target loads in 700X and PB show the proper order of things; bigger charges in the bigger case. It's got more room under the bullet, after all. The .38 Special should start with 3.0 grains, which is about equal to the old standby 2.7 grains of Bullseye commonly used for wadcutters in match shooting. 3.5 grains should be maximum for a hollow base wadcutter in .38 Special. If you get too much powder under these soft swaged bullets, the skirts tend to be blown open by the pressure at the muzzle, spoiling accuracy. 3.5 to 4.0 is about right for the .357 case.

The above is verified by old Winchester load data for .38 Special that is 2.9 to 3.3 grains of 231 with the HBWC, and 3.0 to 3.4 grains with the BBWC. I've e-mailed Hodgdon about this error, and if they have any explanation that doesn't involve a flight of fancy, I'll post it here.


Leading

I always ran .357 cases and 10% more powder when shooting revolver bullseye matches back in the 80's, and had excellent results.

The issue of cylinder lead is individual to the gun. If you look through catalogs by reamer makers, you still find revolver lead removing reamers. These are special reamers used to carve chamber lead build-up out of revolvers, and were a standard armorer's tool when revolvers were more common as match guns. They have to be used carefully to avoid marring the chambers and safer cleaning methods exist now, but the fact these reamers exist at all tells you this was a common a issue for revolvers.

The cause of the leading has mainly to do with the chamber throat and bullet diameter. Most match accurized revolvers use maximum diameter chambers, which helps accuracy by letting the bullet size down entering the bore rather than bumping up in it. But any time the space around a lead bullet is bigger than the bullet, whether in cylinder or bore, even just momentarily while the bullet bumps up, leading is caused by gas blow-by. It just makes a good deal more trouble for accuracy in the bore than it does in the chambers.

The hollow base skirt is one strategy for getting a better seal in an overly wide space, but I find a solid wadcutter that is oversize does better. With lead bullets and light loads, you can safely shoot quite a bit oversized, and sizing bullets to equal the chamber throat diameter often works best to minimize leading. Especially when the case is shorter than the chamber. This assumes you have maximum size chambers.

The best strategy, IMHO, is finding a bullet diameter that produces peak accuracy in your particular gun. That may or may not mean a little periodic lead removal, but cleaning bother is secondary to accuracy for me. Fortunately, loads that shoot best tend to lead least. For my Smith K-frame target revolver with its reamed chambers, the Lee tumble lube bullets shoot best. The ones from my 6-cavity mold average about .3595" with my alloy (an approximation of Lyman #2), and the gun sandbags groups with them that average half the size of my swaged BB WC loads or even the best match grade commercial HB WC loads. No leading worth mentioning occurs.

It turns out, BTW, from talking with others, not to be uncommon for revolvers with reamed cylinders to prefer bullets about 0.002" over groove diameter. I suspect that just gets them closer to throat diameter in many instances, but haven't verified that by measuring. It's just food for thought.
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Last edited by Unclenick; October 30, 2010 at 09:38 AM.
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Old October 30, 2010, 10:51 AM   #18
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When cleaning time comes I just take a 357 case and bell out the opening so it just fits into the cylinder and push it in and it acts like a scrapper. You may have to lightly tap it into the cylinder. This does a wonderfull job removing any buildup from shooting 38's in a 357.
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