.45 auto hunting ammo.

[vba]

I don't hunt, but have read good things about 255 grain WFN (wide flat nose) bullets from Bear Tooth Bullets.

I have bought these from Bear Tooth and loaded some up fairly hot but don't remember the exact grains using Unique Powder. They easily went thru several 2x4's so penetration is plenty. This flat nose design does a lot of damage.

There are loads for them at the Bear Tooth sight and other forums. Remember .45 Colt used a round nose flat point with less meplat and could take down most game in North America.

[dahermit]

The problem is penetration. Hunting deer requires significantly more penetration from the 45 auto than most of the personal defense ammo can yield.

How much penetration would a .45 Auto need to get through the ribs into the vitals? When I butchered all the deer I killed, I found that even #4 buckshot pellets would penetrate all the way to the hide on the off side.

[P71pilot]

Some states require the usage of expanding ammo, which would rule out any Hard lead projectile. I am going to hunt these massive ohio whitetails this season, and after i get one with the Recurve bow, i will use my 1911. I am going to be using Hornady Critical duty ammo, because it is what i have and is very accurate in my gun. If you decide to go hollow point, use a load that has very high penetration compared to others. Like the Federal HST in any weight, heavier being better. From the gel testing i have seen, hst typically has very deep penetration, typically over 15". I believe gel is also stronger/denser than living tissue, you may get better perfomance on living targets than what you see happen to gel blocks.

An average ohio buck is lets say 200#, his chest area is roughly 21" in width, with a a layer of thick skin on thr outside, and strong ribs protecting his vital organs. We can estimate his heart sits dead in the middle of his width, and that entrance on one side, would take about 6 or 7 inches just to reach it, and his heart is about 4" wide, so you need at least 10" of real worpd penetration to enter his body and go through his heart. Any penetration or damage after that is bonus, and will result in a quicker death. We all know how tough these animals arr and how long they csn function even with a fatal wound. I would Opt for a wide flat nose Hard lead projectile unless you are limited to expanding, then i would use a Federal HST 230gr.

It doesnt take 1000+ ft/lbs to kill a deer, you just have to put a hole through his heart or lungs or brain. My recurve bow generates about 40 ft/lbs of energy, yet will go clean through a deer broadside. I have seen american ram and african warthog killed with a razor broadhead blow dart gun.

You just may have to do some tracking. Without a CNS shot, he may run 100 or more yards, be prepared to track him, but i am betting if you hit him in the heart, he will be dead within 50yds

[briandg]

I am now wondering if a copper HP like a barnes would be just as good as a bonded round. May have Better probability that it will track straight.

Using a bow is completely different in principle from a gun. you don't measure them in projectile energy. You measure them in how much tissue you cut through, how much you make them bleed. The broadhead will rip through the tissues to what, almost two inches in one direction and an inch or so the other? Just a little of impact energy is needed, the rest is sectional density of the projectile and how easily it blows through those tissues. A sharp pointed tip and a few slicing blades.

[dahermit]

An average ohio buck is lets say 200#, his chest area is roughly 21" in width, with a a layer of thick skin on thr outside, and strong ribs protecting his vital organs. We can estimate his heart sits dead in the middle of his width, and that entrance on one side, would take about 6 or 7 inches just to reach it, and his heart is about 4" wide, so you need at least 10" of real worpd penetration to enter his body and go through his heart.

I have shot, examined the bullet damage and penetration on many, many deer. One thing I particularly liked was Barbecued deer ribs (bucks only does are way too fat). I would cut the chest into slabs of ribs with a table saw...crude but effective. What I noticed by doing that, was that a deer's ribs are not very substantial and when I was finished eating the ribs, and only the bones were left, it struck me that the ribs do not represent much resistance to a bullet (or #4 buckshot) at all. Further examining the chests of deer, I discovered that with the hide, skin and bone (ribs), there is 1 scant inch or so of barrier before encountering the vitals, which are relatively soft (especially the lungs, liver). I came to the conclusion that all a projectile had to do was to shoot through that inch or so of chest wall and then the projectile is relatively unimpeded as to damaging the heart, liver, and lungs. Therefore, almost any .45 Auto load save for hardball maybe, would be sufficient to kill a Whitetail deer. I have killed about eight deer with #4 Buckshot (as well as many others with rifles), and found that even the modest mass of the #4 Buckshot pellets would penetrate from side-to-side completely save for when the deer about 30 yards. Then, the #4 Buckshot pellets would be found under the off-side hide (there would be bruising around the pellets when the deer was skinned), having done their job. If a #4 Buckshot pellet consistently and successfully penetrates a buck's chest, why would any reasonable .45 Auto bullet not? In short, there is virtually nothing "protecting a deer's vital organs".

[briandg]

A person can look at the meat department at a rack of ribs for hog or even beef and find that the bone really isn't that substantial. It might offer no more resistance than a sheet of 3*8 inch plywood. I believe that the FBI barricade tested for that particular item. Even so, there's at least a good possiblity that the round will just slide right through the critter without even touching bone.

rib bones don't need to be dense as lead and hard as rocks, they aren't weight or muscle bearing bone, just protective in nature and don't carry the same weight as the hip bones or others. I can't think of any similar items in the skeleton. That's why you will notice that they are wider and oblong, the purpose is just to prevent an injury that may have been lethal from resulting in anything but a serious bruise.

After it gets through the bone and hide, well, yes, there is meat, fat, other tissues that offer resistance, and the heart is as tough as a baseball glove, but it is correct that punching through a deer is easier than lots of people assume.

Twenty years or so ago, when winchester brough out the "black talon" rifle rounds, the partition type rounds that were supposed to give the deepest possible penetration, Wal mart here got in thousands of boxes and stacked them ten yards high on the shelves.

Wait, seriously, the missouri white tail isn't a 600 pound roosevelt elk, caribou, or moose, but people were buying rounds designed for heavy game at $2 or $3 each?

I do believe in the use of plugged hollow points like hornady makes. A rubber plug in a hollow point round will prevent the cavity from blocking up with immobile gunk, and if the material is chosen well it will function exactly as the body tissues would in initiating expansion.

[Chainsaw.]

Hard cast from B.B. will glean at least 2' of straight line penetration into soft tissue TYPICALLY. If you cant kill a deer with that you've no business in the stand.

Side comment. As mentioned above on calibers for deer. I grew up in the hill country of Texas, sooo often I would hear idjits speak of needing at least an .06 for white tail....#120 white tail

[briandg]

My dad used a 30-06. I wanted a 25-06. Since he was paying half for what I was going to buy he got to choose, and he insisted that I get a -243. Once in a while, you get a guy who understands that what you need and what you like to have are two different things.

[Big Shrek]

I've used .44Mag (Marlin 1894) & 10mm (G20SF w/ 9" barrel) on southern Whitetail,
but never .45acp, recently have been considering .45-Super for that job...
All it takes to upgrade is a stronger recoil & hammer spring...
which most folks do for reliability anyway...

Through a carbine, I wouldn't mind using .45acp,
but I'd have to use .45-Super for a pistol...
the extra FPS would make a difference.