What is the MOST REPEATABLE powder measure

CITADELGRAD87 · November 28, 2001, 01:03 PM

I'm very happy with my Lee Anniversary setup.

Reloads are well under an inch at 100yards.

I hate having to measure every throw, but I have to because of variations in almost every throw.

I don't mind measuring one of five, but measuring every throw is killing me.

I've looked at electronic dispensers, but am considering a much better dispenser.

Help please.

Jeeper · November 28, 2001, 01:11 PM

You should look into the ones used for bench rest. There are a few. Sinclair sells them. There are a couple people who shoot BR here which could give you names. Most bench resters dont wiegh powder they use a measure. The theory is that the constant volume is more accurate than weight.

Bogie · November 28, 2001, 04:03 PM

Dude, I shoot benchrest.

I use a Harrell, but probably more because I've got a coupla friends who do, and it's easier to talk in "clicks", than because of charge to charge accuracy.

Before, I was using an RCBS Uniflow with the micrometer insert, a baffle/bottle adapter, and the 6" drop tube the Sinclair sells. It worked fine too.

Before that, I used a Lee Perfect measure. Worked just fine - I just hated the small powder column.

What REALLY matters is consistency of operation. Turn that crank the SAME each time.

I still use my Lee measure for loading .223 (it's more or less dedicated).

My advice would be to throw a BUNCH of charges, and get your motion dead-nuts down... If you bang on the measure, bang it the same each time. If you're within .1 grain, you're doing exceptionally well. If you're within .2 grains, you're still fine.

FWIW, I use Lee's autodisk for handguns, and love it.

Steve Smith · November 28, 2001, 04:14 PM

Exactly how much of a variation do you get, and with what powder?

Michael · November 28, 2001, 07:32 PM

That would be my Promethius, hands down.

Of course, for a thousand bucks you might expect it to be.

bullseyekp · November 29, 2001, 11:33 AM

Michael,

Can you please explain what a Promethius is and why in name of Zeus' butthole did it cost one thousand dollars?

Personally, my Lyman 55 throws charges consistent enough for my tastes.

Bogie · November 29, 2001, 11:50 AM

The prometheus is basically a Uniflow, but it has a motorized trickler that dumps on a scale, and when it gets to the right charge, it stops.

I've never seen one in action. And last year I shot at both the Supershoot and the NBRSA group nationals... I see a lot of Harrels, Jones, etc., measures, along with Redding, RCBS, Lee, etc... What REALLY matters is how you yank the crank.

I'd guess I get around a tenth of a grain variation - But this is with short grain sticks, such as 8208, v133, v130, etc.... I'll probably see larger variations with larger sticks.

Michael · November 29, 2001, 03:38 PM

Bogie,

You just described the 1/10th grain automatic unit.

I have the manual unit, same basice principal, beam repeats to 1/100th grain. That's why you pay the money, to get the results.

Shoot 100-200-300 yards and you are wasting money buying one. Shoot highpower and you'll find the top two-three guys using them. Shoot 1000 yard alot and you'll understand why a person pays that kind of money for a measure.

Joe average has no business owning one of these, it would just be a waste of money.

Jim Watson · November 29, 2001, 04:08 PM

I don't have a $250+ benchrest measure; my most readily adjustable and repeatable measure is a Uniflo with small drum and micrometer plug. My Bonanza with the funny angled cylinder -handle combination is probably the most precise once I get it dialed in. My old Redding #3 is fine for large rifle like .30-06. I never could get the Lee to do a thing.

bullseyekp · November 29, 2001, 06:28 PM

Michael,

1/100th of a grain accuracy? That's impressive. Do you have a picture of one of these things? Or possibly a link to a site that has a pic? Not that I want one, just curious what it looks like. Thanks.

slickpuppy · November 29, 2001, 09:27 PM

The electric Prometheus has the same basic mechanism as the manual model and can be run manually. In fact, Brand recommends in his instructions that you do so until you are familiar with its operations. The secret to repeatability with the Prometheus is your interaction with the powder trickler AND where the pointer shadow is!

Michael · November 29, 2001, 11:03 PM

KP95,
I'll send you a photo or two of mine in the morning. Have to take it to the office to photgraph it.

Slick, you got it right. Brand's a good friend. We were out testing Shilens Rachet Rifled barrels this weekend.
Scary things these are!

Brand and I shoot at Tac Pro Shooting center here in centeral Texas. It's interesting to walk into the reloading room and see four of the Promethius set up on a bench being used by members shooting 1000 yard.
(No, we didn't get deals on the things, all of us paid full fare)

bfoster · December 3, 2001, 03:24 PM

Pay attention to what bogie said: consistency is the key. Here are a few qualifiers...

For simple mechanical measures it depends upon what type of powder you are using.

The Harrell and Jones measures are very, very good at dispensing the sort of charges with either extruded or spherical powders that are used in common rifle cartridges, but I'd have to admit that I have an old Redding measure that is darn near as consistent as my Harrell.

For flake powders used in pistol loads, and for some shotgun hunting loads which I assemble on a single stage press where I want better conrol of powder weight than is afforded by MEC or P/W bushings, I've had better luck with an assortment of measures.

For general purpose use, the measure made by Dillon isn't bad. If you are interested in more consistent results than this measure gives, try the following as appropriate: for meduim to large charges, say over about 2.5 grains- the Harrell scheutzen measure, though I have also obtained excellent results with an old Saeco unit for loads in this class. For really small charges, like the 1.6 gr of Bullseye used under a 95 gr wadcutter in the 32 S&W Long, or the 1.3 gr of Bullseye used behind a 50 gr FMJ in the 25 ACP I use an old Ideal #5- this is internally very similar to the Lyman #55.

All the above said, the way the powder sits within the case can have, in some instances, as much influence on results as minor variations in charge weight. While this is most easily seen in handgun ammunition (try the 38 Special loaded with 3.5 gr Unique behind a 148 gr HBWC, first with the powder forward, then with the powder at the rear of the case) it is also evident in some rifle loads, particularily reduced loads.

Bob

WESHOOT2 · December 4, 2001, 03:40 AM

Redding, Hornady, RCBS.

pbash · December 7, 2001, 02:56 PM

I have a Harrell's measure that throws very consistent charges with extruded and spherical powders. It was all over the place with Win 231, a flake powder, with +- .3-.4gr variations. I ended up using a Lee scoop to measure the powder (which was amazingly consistent if somewhat inflexible).

Even with extruded/spherical powders, the Harrell's responds really well to consistent technique. When I raise the handle to fill the dispensing chamber, I tap it against the stop twice lightly. When I lower the handle to dispense the powder, I tap it twice lightly against the lower stop. Doing that religiously gives me very consistent charges with the right powders.

Steve Smith · December 8, 2001, 08:18 PM

I am not convinced that the "top three" Highpower shooters are using Prometheus measures. I know quite a few of those top guys, and many of them use Uniflows. Some even use the Dillon measures with no problems. In a position game like HP, there are too many variables to realize any gain that that kind of precision will get you. I'll ask David Tubb what he uses and get back.

Michael · December 8, 2001, 10:29 PM

Steve,

You are correct I do believe. I'm mixing Highpower and the Palma guys ( U.S. + Canadian ) in my feeble old mind. Thinking and typing has never been my strong suite.

I do recall Mr. Tubb having a pair of these for highpower, not personal knowledge, but from Brand, the dude that dreamt this thing up.

Steve Smith · December 9, 2001, 12:10 AM

Actually, I think David said that he's using a measure of his own design. However, the AMU, arguably the best HP group (team) uses progressive measures, or more often, "off the shelf" (kinda) Federal SMK GM, that is built using progressive measures.

Citadel, from what I've seen and hearing other's results, matching the measure to your powder is often the best way to get the most consistent loads, if you must have the ultimate in consistency.

Dogjaw · December 9, 2001, 07:58 PM

Dillon powder measures are darn good. 52 grains of W760 will vary well under 1/10th of a grain. 37 grains of W760 and pistol charges of W231 and W296 do not vary at all. I'll set it up for 5.4 grains of W231 and it measures right on the money every time I check.

Dillon measures DO NOT work well with IMR powders. It shears the powder and starts to stick. I've had such good luck with ball powders, I don't mind staying away from extruded brands.

Joe Portale · December 9, 2001, 09:52 PM

I dunno guys, if you are loading for competition, why are you trying to have a machine do everything? Yes, I know time is important, but somethings should not be short cut.

My procedure is a manual RCBS Uniflow with a baffle, powder trickler and a 1010 scale. I throw the charge a bit shy, then bring it up to point with the trickler. It sounds like the hard way around, but I can do 100 rounds in about half an hour. If the ammo is for plinking, then I let the powder measure float. It is never off more that .2 grains plus or minus using ball powder. FWIW, every tenth round is weighed for safety when loading plinkers.

Michael · December 9, 2001, 10:11 PM

Joe,

I use a uniflow for alot of things, but don't have a powder baffle installed. Do you see a noticable increase in charge to charge consistancy as the powder level decreases?

Thanks,
Mike

Steve Smith · December 9, 2001, 10:24 PM

Joe Portale

I use the Dillon beacuse it WORKS. My HP ammo holds sub .75 MOA, at just over 2" at 300 yards. My 600 yard loads do just as well. I'm sure this ammo will actually do better than that, but I 'm just no good with a scope mounted on top of a carry handle. Why walk when you can ride?

Dogjaw · December 10, 2001, 03:52 AM

I use a Dillon for the same reason as Steve. It works. I don't think that using a powder measure that throws exactly what I want everytime a shortcut.

stuckatwork · December 10, 2001, 10:30 AM

Hello,

This is Joe in my other incarnation as Stuckatwork...because, I'm stuck at work.

Michael, I had the problem of the RCBS charges bouncing around as the cylinder volume changed. The baffle cured that. The baffle maintains an even wieght pressure on the drum no matter the amoount of powder in the cylinder. It was well worth the $4 that I paid for it.

For the Dillon guys, I bet that you can't say that when using powders like 4895 or other stick powders. One of my presses is a Dillon 550 and the powder measure has a devil of a time with stick powders. It does meter ball powders extremely well. In fairnes, so does the RCBS, but not as bad as the Dillon.

Different strokes for different folks.

Keith J · December 10, 2001, 01:37 PM

I use my Dillon for .223 with this IMR powder with great luck. My secret is to make another baffle out of a plastic funnel. Cut it down to where it fits inside the measure and position its neck just above the (undersized) existing baffle. You will probably have to remove the plastic hopper to fit it correctly.

Use the measure as always and the additional funnel reduces packing and lets the powder flow evenly. I get an unmeasurable variance on 24-26 grain loads but YMMV. I figured this out by partially filling the measure while throwing loads. As long as I didn't fill it past the existing baffle, it was very accurate. Filling it to the top made it vary by a grain or more and I could feel the grains being cut.

November 28, 2001, 01:03 PM	#1
CITADELGRAD87 Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2000 Posts: 432	What is the MOST REPEATABLE powder measure I'm very happy with my Lee Anniversary setup. Reloads are well under an inch at 100yards. I hate having to measure every throw, but I have to because of variations in almost every throw. I don't mind measuring one of five, but measuring every throw is killing me. I've looked at electronic dispensers, but am considering a much better dispenser. Help please.

November 28, 2001, 04:14 PM	#4
Steve Smith Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 1999 Posts: 4,131	Exactly how much of a variation do you get, and with what powder? __________________ Favor the X. Steve Smith NRA Life Member

November 29, 2001, 11:33 AM	#6
bullseyekp Senior Member Join Date: March 16, 2000 Location: Oklahoma City Posts: 118	$1000 powder measure? Michael, Can you please explain what a Promethius is and why in name of Zeus' butthole did it cost one thousand dollars? Personally, my Lyman 55 throws charges consistent enough for my tastes. __________________ "The great German poet, Goethe, who also lived through a crisis of freedom, said to his generation: 'What you have inherited from your fathers, earn over again for yourselves or it will not be yours'. We inherited freedom. We seem unaware that freedom has to be remade and re-earned in each generation of man." --Adlai Stevenson, "Politics and Morality", Saturday Review, February 7, 1959.

November 29, 2001, 11:50 AM	#7
Bogie Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2000 Location: Job hunting on the road... Posts: 3,827	The prometheus is basically a Uniflow, but it has a motorized trickler that dumps on a scale, and when it gets to the right charge, it stops. I've never seen one in action. And last year I shot at both the Supershoot and the NBRSA group nationals... I see a lot of Harrels, Jones, etc., measures, along with Redding, RCBS, Lee, etc... What REALLY matters is how you yank the crank. I'd guess I get around a tenth of a grain variation - But this is with short grain sticks, such as 8208, v133, v130, etc.... I'll probably see larger variations with larger sticks. __________________ Job hunting, but helping a friend out at www.vikingmachineusa.com - and learning the finer aspects of becoming a precision machinist. And making the world's greatest bottle openers!

December 4, 2001, 03:40 AM	#14
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	NORMAL Redding, Hornady, RCBS. __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

November 28, 2001, 01:11 PM	#2
Jeeper Senior Member Join Date: November 1, 2001 Location: Gilbert, AZ Posts: 776	You should look into the ones used for bench rest. There are a few. Sinclair sells them. There are a couple people who shoot BR here which could give you names. Most bench resters dont wiegh powder they use a measure. The theory is that the constant volume is more accurate than weight.

November 28, 2001, 04:03 PM	#3
Bogie Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2000 Location: Job hunting on the road... Posts: 3,827	Dude, I shoot benchrest. I use a Harrell, but probably more because I've got a coupla friends who do, and it's easier to talk in "clicks", than because of charge to charge accuracy. Before, I was using an RCBS Uniflow with the micrometer insert, a baffle/bottle adapter, and the 6" drop tube the Sinclair sells. It worked fine too. Before that, I used a Lee Perfect measure. Worked just fine - I just hated the small powder column. What REALLY matters is consistency of operation. Turn that crank the SAME each time. I still use my Lee measure for loading .223 (it's more or less dedicated). My advice would be to throw a BUNCH of charges, and get your motion dead-nuts down... If you bang on the measure, bang it the same each time. If you're within .1 grain, you're doing exceptionally well. If you're within .2 grains, you're still fine. FWIW, I use Lee's autodisk for handguns, and love it. __________________ Job hunting, but helping a friend out at www.vikingmachineusa.com - and learning the finer aspects of becoming a precision machinist. And making the world's greatest bottle openers!

November 28, 2001, 07:32 PM	#5
Michael Junior member Join Date: July 20, 1999 Location: Texas Posts: 264	That would be my Promethius, hands down. Of course, for a thousand bucks you might expect it to be.

November 29, 2001, 03:38 PM	#8
Michael Junior member Join Date: July 20, 1999 Location: Texas Posts: 264	Bogie, You just described the 1/10th grain automatic unit. I have the manual unit, same basice principal, beam repeats to 1/100th grain. That's why you pay the money, to get the results. Shoot 100-200-300 yards and you are wasting money buying one. Shoot highpower and you'll find the top two-three guys using them. Shoot 1000 yard alot and you'll understand why a person pays that kind of money for a measure. Joe average has no business owning one of these, it would just be a waste of money.

November 29, 2001, 04:08 PM	#9
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,535	I don't have a $250+ benchrest measure; my most readily adjustable and repeatable measure is a Uniflo with small drum and micrometer plug. My Bonanza with the funny angled cylinder -handle combination is probably the most precise once I get it dialed in. My old Redding #3 is fine for large rifle like .30-06. I never could get the Lee to do a thing.

November 29, 2001, 06:28 PM	#10
bullseyekp Senior Member Join Date: March 16, 2000 Location: Oklahoma City Posts: 118	Michael, 1/100th of a grain accuracy? That's impressive. Do you have a picture of one of these things? Or possibly a link to a site that has a pic? Not that I want one, just curious what it looks like. Thanks.

November 29, 2001, 09:27 PM	#11
slickpuppy Senior Member Join Date: August 29, 1999 Posts: 928	The electric Prometheus has the same basic mechanism as the manual model and can be run manually. In fact, Brand recommends in his instructions that you do so until you are familiar with its operations. The secret to repeatability with the Prometheus is your interaction with the powder trickler AND where the pointer shadow is!

November 29, 2001, 11:03 PM	#12
Michael Junior member Join Date: July 20, 1999 Location: Texas Posts: 264	KP95, I'll send you a photo or two of mine in the morning. Have to take it to the office to photgraph it. Slick, you got it right. Brand's a good friend. We were out testing Shilens Rachet Rifled barrels this weekend. Scary things these are! Brand and I shoot at Tac Pro Shooting center here in centeral Texas. It's interesting to walk into the reloading room and see four of the Promethius set up on a bench being used by members shooting 1000 yard. (No, we didn't get deals on the things, all of us paid full fare)

December 3, 2001, 03:24 PM	#13
bfoster Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 1998 Location: N. of Fords Switch, OK, USA Posts: 297	Pay attention to what bogie said: consistency is the key. Here are a few qualifiers... For simple mechanical measures it depends upon what type of powder you are using. The Harrell and Jones measures are very, very good at dispensing the sort of charges with either extruded or spherical powders that are used in common rifle cartridges, but I'd have to admit that I have an old Redding measure that is darn near as consistent as my Harrell. For flake powders used in pistol loads, and for some shotgun hunting loads which I assemble on a single stage press where I want better conrol of powder weight than is afforded by MEC or P/W bushings, I've had better luck with an assortment of measures. For general purpose use, the measure made by Dillon isn't bad. If you are interested in more consistent results than this measure gives, try the following as appropriate: for meduim to large charges, say over about 2.5 grains- the Harrell scheutzen measure, though I have also obtained excellent results with an old Saeco unit for loads in this class. For really small charges, like the 1.6 gr of Bullseye used under a 95 gr wadcutter in the 32 S&W Long, or the 1.3 gr of Bullseye used behind a 50 gr FMJ in the 25 ACP I use an old Ideal #5- this is internally very similar to the Lyman #55. All the above said, the way the powder sits within the case can have, in some instances, as much influence on results as minor variations in charge weight. While this is most easily seen in handgun ammunition (try the 38 Special loaded with 3.5 gr Unique behind a 148 gr HBWC, first with the powder forward, then with the powder at the rear of the case) it is also evident in some rifle loads, particularily reduced loads. Bob

December 7, 2001, 02:56 PM	#15
pbash Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 1999 Posts: 189	I have a Harrell's measure that throws very consistent charges with extruded and spherical powders. It was all over the place with Win 231, a flake powder, with +- .3-.4gr variations. I ended up using a Lee scoop to measure the powder (which was amazingly consistent if somewhat inflexible). Even with extruded/spherical powders, the Harrell's responds really well to consistent technique. When I raise the handle to fill the dispensing chamber, I tap it against the stop twice lightly. When I lower the handle to dispense the powder, I tap it twice lightly against the lower stop. Doing that religiously gives me very consistent charges with the right powders.

December 8, 2001, 08:18 PM	#16
Steve Smith Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 1999 Posts: 4,131	I am not convinced that the "top three" Highpower shooters are using Prometheus measures. I know quite a few of those top guys, and many of them use Uniflows. Some even use the Dillon measures with no problems. In a position game like HP, there are too many variables to realize any gain that that kind of precision will get you. I'll ask David Tubb what he uses and get back. __________________ Favor the X. Steve Smith NRA Life Member

December 8, 2001, 10:29 PM	#17
Michael Junior member Join Date: July 20, 1999 Location: Texas Posts: 264	Steve, You are correct I do believe. I'm mixing Highpower and the Palma guys ( U.S. + Canadian ) in my feeble old mind. Thinking and typing has never been my strong suite. I do recall Mr. Tubb having a pair of these for highpower, not personal knowledge, but from Brand, the dude that dreamt this thing up.

December 9, 2001, 12:10 AM	#18
Steve Smith Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 1999 Posts: 4,131	Actually, I think David said that he's using a measure of his own design. However, the AMU, arguably the best HP group (team) uses progressive measures, or more often, "off the shelf" (kinda) Federal SMK GM, that is built using progressive measures. Citadel, from what I've seen and hearing other's results, matching the measure to your powder is often the best way to get the most consistent loads, if you must have the ultimate in consistency. __________________ Favor the X. Steve Smith NRA Life Member

December 9, 2001, 07:58 PM	#19
Dogjaw Senior Member Join Date: October 6, 2001 Location: S.W. Michigan Posts: 560	Dillon powder measures are darn good. 52 grains of W760 will vary well under 1/10th of a grain. 37 grains of W760 and pistol charges of W231 and W296 do not vary at all. I'll set it up for 5.4 grains of W231 and it measures right on the money every time I check. Dillon measures DO NOT work well with IMR powders. It shears the powder and starts to stick. I've had such good luck with ball powders, I don't mind staying away from extruded brands.

December 9, 2001, 09:52 PM	#20
Joe Portale Senior Member Join Date: June 8, 1999 Location: Tucson, Arizona Territory Posts: 715	I dunno guys, if you are loading for competition, why are you trying to have a machine do everything? Yes, I know time is important, but somethings should not be short cut. My procedure is a manual RCBS Uniflow with a baffle, powder trickler and a 1010 scale. I throw the charge a bit shy, then bring it up to point with the trickler. It sounds like the hard way around, but I can do 100 rounds in about half an hour. If the ammo is for plinking, then I let the powder measure float. It is never off more that .2 grains plus or minus using ball powder. FWIW, every tenth round is weighed for safety when loading plinkers. __________________ Joe Portale Tucson, Arizona Territory "Even now in heaven there are angles carrying savage weapons". - St Paul

December 9, 2001, 10:11 PM	#21
Michael Junior member Join Date: July 20, 1999 Location: Texas Posts: 264	Joe, I use a uniflow for alot of things, but don't have a powder baffle installed. Do you see a noticable increase in charge to charge consistancy as the powder level decreases? Thanks, Mike

December 9, 2001, 10:24 PM	#22
Steve Smith Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 1999 Posts: 4,131	Joe Portale I use the Dillon beacuse it WORKS. My HP ammo holds sub .75 MOA, at just over 2" at 300 yards. My 600 yard loads do just as well. I'm sure this ammo will actually do better than that, but I 'm just no good with a scope mounted on top of a carry handle. Why walk when you can ride? __________________ Favor the X. Steve Smith NRA Life Member

December 10, 2001, 03:52 AM	#23
Dogjaw Senior Member Join Date: October 6, 2001 Location: S.W. Michigan Posts: 560	I use a Dillon for the same reason as Steve. It works. I don't think that using a powder measure that throws exactly what I want everytime a shortcut.

December 10, 2001, 10:30 AM	#24
stuckatwork Senior Member Join Date: March 3, 2000 Posts: 217	Hello, This is Joe in my other incarnation as Stuckatwork...because, I'm stuck at work. Michael, I had the problem of the RCBS charges bouncing around as the cylinder volume changed. The baffle cured that. The baffle maintains an even wieght pressure on the drum no matter the amoount of powder in the cylinder. It was well worth the $4 that I paid for it. For the Dillon guys, I bet that you can't say that when using powders like 4895 or other stick powders. One of my presses is a Dillon 550 and the powder measure has a devil of a time with stick powders. It does meter ball powders extremely well. In fairnes, so does the RCBS, but not as bad as the Dillon. Different strokes for different folks. __________________ These are the words of Stuckatwork. They don't represent the views or opinions of my employers. They aren't that clever.

December 10, 2001, 01:37 PM	#25
Keith J Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2000 Posts: 469	Dillon and 4895 I use my Dillon for .223 with this IMR powder with great luck. My secret is to make another baffle out of a plastic funnel. Cut it down to where it fits inside the measure and position its neck just above the (undersized) existing baffle. You will probably have to remove the plastic hopper to fit it correctly. Use the measure as always and the additional funnel reduces packing and lets the powder flow evenly. I get an unmeasurable variance on 24-26 grain loads but YMMV. I figured this out by partially filling the measure while throwing loads. As long as I didn't fill it past the existing baffle, it was very accurate. Filling it to the top made it vary by a grain or more and I could feel the grains being cut.