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Old May 25, 2010, 02:15 PM   #76
RemTim
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.
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it is a proven fact that revolvers are more reliable than autos, more accurate and more powerful. a black powder revolver loaded properly and well maintained will fire just as reliably as any other revolver.

2. the .45 long colt was a direct copy of the .44 cal black powder c&b load. same powder and ballistics as a cap and ball just faster on the reload. also it is a fact that the .45acp was designed to mimic the ballistics of the 45lc cart. so the .44 (.454) cap and ball is no less effective as a man stopper than the .45acp. thats a fact, jack. look it up...

do some ballistics research before you go spouting off your opinions. i have had several .45 acp pistols and the black powder has always been more accurate and reliable than any one of them. and if 6 .454 lead balls doesn't stop mr. perp, i doubt 7 .45acp will...
What he said.
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Old May 25, 2010, 02:17 PM   #77
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You want reliability?

It just so happens that a reliability thread was just posted at TGO:

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/cu...tml#post530156

Quote:
I've read on several other forums where some people have said they wouldn't trust a Colt or Remington black powder revolver for anything past being an amusing range toy, due to them being "unreliable".

I have one such gun, a Remington 1858 New Army clone, that I figure some of you might have an interest in hearing about, regarding that.

It's an Uberti, with a 5 - 1/2 inch barrel, that I've had for a few years now. I've tuned it up, "aged" the finish, and pretty much keep it as my house and yard gun. I also keep it loaded at all times, sometimes for 4 or 5 months between firings.

Knowing how y'all love pics, here it is:

I have to say, the only time this gun hasn't fired was once when I was experimenting with various ways of sealing the caps, to waterproof the thing. Managed to contaminate the primers and had to re-cap to get it to fire. Oh well, no big deal. In the end, I discovered it didn't need sealing, unless I planned on going swimming with it. ( I don't. )

Yesterday I happened to remember that I hadn't had the thing out in a while, so I went and got it from it's usual resting place... and discovered that all the rain and humidity here lately had done some ugliness.

There was rust in the bolt notches, along the back of the frame beside the hammer... and the caps were all turning a nice shade of green. ( This color --> )

I was sure it wasn't going to fire, or at best, produce a squib if it did go off.

Well, upon taking it outside and very slowly and carefully pulling the trigger on each chamber, every round fired. There was no difference in how it acted, after sitting for 2 or 3 months, and turning all sorts of interesting colors, than if I had just loaded it.

And here's the funny part: It wasn't even loaded with real BP, or even pyrodex. I last loaded it with APP... American Pioneer Powder. A powder substitute that's notorious for sucking water out of the air. And it was all loaded without lube, wads, patches or sealants. Nothing more than powder, caps and balls.

So I have to say if anybody has ever doubted the reliability of a percussion gun... Don't. If they're loaded even halfway right, and aren't kept in a bucket of water, they'll go "bang" just as readily as any modern gun will, no matter how long they've been sitting.

Oh, and after cleaning up all the rust and grunge, mine is reloaded and back in it's usual spot.

I'll have to try and remember to check it a little more frequently, but I know that even if I don't, it'll still do it's job when I need it to.

J.
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Old May 25, 2010, 02:23 PM   #78
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Man, I'm glad some big dogs showed up that are in their right mind.

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Old May 25, 2010, 02:53 PM   #79
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2 points here dino

1. it is a proven fact that revolvers are more reliable than autos, more accurate and more powerful. a black powder revolver loaded properly and well maintained will fire just as reliably as any other revolver.

2. the .45 long colt was a direct copy of the .44 cal black powder c&b load. same powder and ballistics as a cap and ball just faster on the reload. also it is a fact that the .45acp was designed to mimic the ballistics of the 45lc cart. so the .44 (.454) cap and ball is no less effective as a man stopper than the .45acp. thats a fact, jack. look it up...

do some ballistics research before you go spouting off your opinions. i have had several .45 acp pistols and the black powder has always been more accurate and reliable than any one of them. and if 6 .454 lead balls doesn't stop mr. perp, i doubt 7 .45acp will...
1) Nobody said anything about semi-autos vs. revolvers ...
I guess when someone here disagrees, it's customary to mis-quote them
and/or put words in their mouth?

2) Your so-called "ballistics research" don't mean jack in a gun that is prone
to mis-fire. And even in the event that luck be on your side and your gun
does actually fire, do you seriously think a lead ball is more effective than
a hollow-point bullet?

And since you brought up the subject of semi-automatics, let's go
there and discuss capacity ... Would you rather pack FIVE cap and ball
handguns, or one magazine? Let me guess ... you only need one shot,
right?

As for "spouting off" opinons ...
At least my opinions won't mis-lead people into a false sense
of security in thinking that thier cap and ball handgun is providing them
with adequate protection for the purpose of self-defense.
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Old May 25, 2010, 02:56 PM   #80
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Black powder people are tools.
Fixed.


Kidding!!!!
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Old May 25, 2010, 03:06 PM   #81
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The people here at this black powder forum are divided into two categories in experiences with black powder revolvers, Dino.
There are some have vouched for the reliability of black powder fire\arms, even in comparison with modern firearms and there are people that have trouble with theirs from time to time. You may want to examine what you know, what you are doing and the blackpowder firearms you use and maintain before you continue your misguided assumptions.

Last edited by RemTim; May 25, 2010 at 03:23 PM.
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Old May 25, 2010, 03:24 PM   #82
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The people here at this black powder forum are divided into two categories in experiences with black powder revolvers, Dino.
There are some have vouched for the reliability of black powder fire arms, even in comparison with modern firearms and there are people that have trouble with theirs from time to time. You may want to examine what you know, what you are doing and the firearms you use and maintain before you continue your misguided assumptions.
I'm sorry Tim, but for self-defense, there are far better choices.
That's not just my "opinion", it's fact.

Anyone who thinks otherwise has either had their head burried in the sand for the past 150 years, or have been terribly mis-guided, or both.

Nuff said.
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Old May 25, 2010, 03:42 PM   #83
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Solution

I think I've found a compromise...Now if I could only figure out how to keep all the BP fouling from jamming up my 1911.

RemTim: I think I saw one of those deep in the Pisgah!
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Old May 25, 2010, 03:46 PM   #84
Dino.
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I think I've found a compromise...Now if I could only figure out how to keep all the BP fouling from jamming up my 1911.
Now THAT's funny.
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Old May 25, 2010, 04:01 PM   #85
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Quote:
even in the event that luck be on your side and your gun
does actually fire
So you're saying that there's a better than 50% chance the gun won't fire?

I'm sorry, but I have a hard time believing this...
How is there a market for a product that more often than not doesn't work?
Why are there black powder hunting licenses/seasons?
Why do so many different companies even bother making guns or manufacturing black powder and percussion caps?
How did so many men die in 3 days at Gettysburg if nobody's gun was functioning properly and they were lucky to get off a shot?
Pickett's Charge!! Imagine how quick that would have been over if the Fed's guns had actually worked!
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Old May 25, 2010, 04:15 PM   #86
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i brought up semi-auto to eleminate you from using them as an example right out of the gate (obviously with you capacity comment THAT didn't work). now there have been several testimonials to the reliability of modern black powder and you continue to spout your b.s.... get a life, move out of your mother's basement and go shoot a gun for once. and if YOUR black powder is "prone to misfires" then maybe YOU are the problem because mine isn't and nor are any of the peoples' i shoot with. also since you want to play the capacity game, give me one 6 round 1858 remington with 1 dud chamber against your 1911 colt with 1 dud round and lets see you stay in the fight while i'm still shooting at you.... i'm done with this thread as tim and i and a few others have posted all the valuable information and you have just spewed your uneducated opinion...
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Old May 25, 2010, 04:16 PM   #87
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Remember, Bill Hickok's life was once saved by a cap not going off.
I have a diary of a local Civil War veteran - it was written from 1876 - 1879. He knew weapons, he loved to hunt, but he had a hard time with caps not going off in his shotgun.
As far as home defense, you gotta think about the smoke and sparks if you fire in a house.
I'd rate a BP revolver at 75 - 80% reliable in a life and death situation, which isn't bad. My Ruger Speed Six 38/357 I'd rate at 99%. Gotta go with the odds. Back in the day, everyone had the same odds, more or less, because they had the same technology.
And you should remember that, even though a cap and ball is not considered a firearm under Federal law and most local laws, once you conceal it, or add a conversion cylinder, everything changes.
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Old May 25, 2010, 04:18 PM   #88
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gunfacts.com is your friend... doesn't matter how many bullets you pack. Research shows you don't need a bunch, no matter if you're a crack shot or not!

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Old May 25, 2010, 05:28 PM   #89
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Not sure if anyone has mentioned it but Hickok was said to unload, clean, and reload his pistols every day. Was this a case of undiagnosed 1800's OCD or did his experience tell him he needed to minimize the chance of misfire?

Personally, for self defense I wouldn't use my hands if I could get a stick, or use a stick if I could get a BP pistol, or use a BP pistol if I could get a 1911. I also wouldn't use a horse and buggy if I could get a Porsche 911.

I admit it would be cool to be able to brag about doing away with a bad guy with an "old" gun, that is if I was still around to brag.

Last edited by Wobble; May 25, 2010 at 05:33 PM.
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Old May 25, 2010, 05:42 PM   #90
Forklift
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Quote:
Hickok was said to unload, clean, and reload his pistols every day.
Hickock was in the Union army during the Civil War and I'm sure he picked up a cleaning routine because his life depended on his weapon, as do all modern military service personnel. He also was considered an eccentric (heard of the ivory grips?) so it's not far-fetched to think of him as OCD about making his guns work as good as I'm sure he kept them looking.
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Old May 25, 2010, 05:48 PM   #91
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I wouldn't feel undergunned or defenseless with one. BTW shooting bp out of a 1911 is a blast.
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Old May 25, 2010, 06:01 PM   #92
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Quote:
Nuff said.
Not quite ... I'll take it that most of this was in jest, and you bein' the Jestor are capable and knowledgable enough to handle a Black Powder hangun with a C&B or a Cartridge in it...ya see they is both Revolvers the utilize Holy Black as a propellent.
But after all the funnin' I just finnished reading I can tell that you just may not be BP Rev educated enough with BP Revs to feel safe with usin' one for protection. The Rev has to be right before it is usable, jus' like any other hangun...then alot of practice and earned respect of the Rev. Respect is the key word to becoming a good Shootist.
So now you can say "Enough Said" :O) heehee!
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Old May 25, 2010, 06:18 PM   #93
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Smokin Gun brought up a good point, probably the best point - it all comes down to the shooter. You could hand someone a modern, high-tech Cadillac of a gun and they might shoot themselves in the foot. Or you could hand an 1851 Colt Navy .36 to a guy like Hickok and he'll put a roundball in your heart at 75 yds, under fire. It's not the wand, it's the magician.
Good one, Mr S. Gun.
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Old May 25, 2010, 06:39 PM   #94
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What was the historical bore of the .44 Colts and Remingtons (and others)?

Reading threads like this makes me think that background checks, waiting periods and permits should be required - for computer ownership and use.
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Old May 25, 2010, 06:52 PM   #95
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JNewell, now that was funny... I do know that the first Remington Conversion was .46 cal Rimfire cartridge...that's all I got at the moment.
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Old May 25, 2010, 07:15 PM   #96
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Thank you, sir.

I would have ass-u-med that they .44s were actually .429ish rather than .452/.454ish, but I wouldn't have had any basis for that and am betting someone here knows the answer.
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Old May 25, 2010, 07:27 PM   #97
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Not positive, but purdy sure them .44Colt were heeled bullets same as the .45 or .46 were. The Conversions that I've seen had had room for 6 chamber straight up no angular degrees to um... Im' sure someone in here can shed a better light ont them Colt carts and conversions than I have done.
I still kick myself for not gettin' Conversion for my Rems in .44Colt/would need heeled boolits, when I had the chance.
I'm workin' on a Gated kirst in 38spl, jus' found loally a box of 158gr .358" hollow base wadcutters for $32 for 500... I wanted to try um first, but that's a pretty good price in lue of Hornady by the 100 or heeled boolits...
What I really want is a Mold for both to use in my Pietta 1861 Navy short barreled .36 cal in .375". The Kirst is .375" chambers and throat...love the gate too.
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Old May 25, 2010, 08:06 PM   #98
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Quote:
What was the historical bore of the .44 Colts and Remingtons (and others)?
If you're talking cartridge it was .427
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Old May 25, 2010, 08:21 PM   #99
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Quote:
Don't get me wrong, I love BP guns....
But for self-defense, you're better off using one as a club.
I had to tone down my first post after reading those words, Then I calmed down and remembered what I was here for. I used humorous of a way of expressing myself. I like humor, just in case no one here noticed.
I came into this forum armed with little more than borrowed opinions expressed by guys like you all in this forum. In my amateur effort to put it all together in a fitting pattern, I made statements that offended some. Those who know me here, know I have no problem with humble heartfelt apologies. This is the first time I can say I ain't apologizing for one thing I have said in this thread or how I said it.
For someone to just pop in with a disrespectful remark and nothing to back it up with, I have little I have apology, I will use humor, sarcasm and anything else I can muster up without regret, and if you don't like it, then that's just too bad.
Opinions are always welcome in a debate. Stupid disrespectful sniper remarks are unwarranted. If you are going to rattle your trap, find something to support your babbling. I would like to know what major advantage, other than fast loading ammo, the modern firearm has over black powder firearms that are properly maintained, handled and shot. If you had one, I'm sure you would have shared.

Quote:
But for self-defense, you're better off using one as a club.
Heard that one before, somewhere in the forum pages. I don't know who said it and do not care. May have been you for all we know, or perhaps you were trying to stimulate a debate; nothing wrong with that as I have used unconventional methods to achieve topic participation here. However, if you are serious, then you are hilarious.
This thread has turned into a rigorous debate in which you have few that shared your position. The majority of these guys know how to get the maximum performance out of their black powder arms where you have difficulty with reliability. Try learning instead of trying to be something you are not. Don't blame the gun, blame yourself.
I learned a lot on this thread, but nothing to support the black powder reliability issue. I got a bonus though, a new signature.............................

Quote:
RemTim: I think I saw one of those deep in the Pisgah!
If was strapped with these two toy guns, it was me.



Does anyone want to throw rocks and raise a stick?????????????????????????????????????????
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Old May 25, 2010, 08:35 PM   #100
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Take a 36 c with 22 or 25 grains of pyro or the real stuff packed w/wad / ball and capped. Stand 30 feet from a solid 1x4 board and fire. Now look at the back of the boad where the bullet exited and say to yourself--"would I be a happy camper if was standing in that spot when the gun was fired!" The only time the gun isn't lethal is when it misfires. Keep it clean, loaded properly and again I reiterate---the nipples have to be cleared!! Use a nickel 26 guage guitar string . The nikel wrapping is rough and probably won't scar the insides but it will scub out excess rust and powder residue. Hell, they had guitars back then---maybe those cowbows used them too
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