2nd/3rd gen colts - Page 4

Hardy · April 6, 2011, 11:11 PM

Bishop--I got a 3rd gen 51 navy(unturned nib) coming in with uncracked box /white shipping box/ colt wooden display case and all colt accessories for box. You interested. Actually I want it. But I have same coming w/ 1849 pocket. I'll giv one up

Bishop Creek · April 6, 2011, 11:34 PM

Hardy, send me a PM with prices on the '51 and '49, and on the fired '51 Navy too ( I can only afford one of them, maybe).

junkman_01 · April 7, 2011, 07:52 AM

Hardy,

Some of us have a different take on this matter than you do. We have just as much right to express our views as you do in this venue. You have provided no proof to back up your claim, other than "I was told....". Just because it says Colt on it makes it collectible, but doesn't mean that Colt had anything to do with the manufacturing, inspection, or sale of these guns. Same as Bell and HOWELL!.

BTW, they are very nice guns.

Slamfire · April 7, 2011, 09:46 AM

Quote:

But that is not true either. If the guns are stamed Colt then they are colts-who ever made them. Or Colt would sue for counterfeiting. Yu think?

So what makes a Colt a Colt. Is it the name? The name is trademarked, and has been sold by Colt for use in knives. I bought a Colt branded knife, thinking it would be a high quality item, and it was not. I was very disappointed.

Colt is a corporation no more, no less. A corporation is run to maximize profits for the CEO, CFO and Directors running the corporation. And I mean maximize now, not tomorrow. These guys want their chips to have the maximum value so they can run to the counter and cash them in, now.

Corporations will license their names, trademarks, to boost profits now. Corporations will do things in the short run that will hurt profits in the long run, but since all the guys in charge now will have cashed out by then, that is not a problem. For now.

So, is a 3rd Generation Colt a Colt when the production was licensed out to Imperato?

Quote:

quote from the article "History of Colt reproductions' by Dennis Adler.

"Imperato organized the Colt Blackpowder Arms Company in Brooklyn, New York in 1993. A year later, the 3rd Generation Colt Blackpowder Signature Series was introduced under a licensing agreement with Colt's Manufacturing Company, Inc. Under this new "licensing" arrangement, Imperato not only manufactured the 3rd Generation black powder revolvers, he was also responsible for quality control, final inspection, marketing, advertising, sales, distribution and shipping to distributors or customers."

Ref: https://www.bluebookinc.com/Info/PDF...fColtBlack.pdf

Is a Schrade knife a Schrade knife when they are now made in China?

My Colt 3rd Model Dragoon was eye popping beautiful but functionally defective. It is also made of Italian parts.

I do not think I got good value for my money, "Colt" or not.

Jimmy10mm · April 7, 2011, 10:09 AM

Help a confused old guy out. Were any of the Walkers made in the 2nd gen run ? Not a Dragoon, but the Walker with no gizmo under the bbl to hold the loading lever. I'm assuming 1st gen refers to the original 1800s production ? I'm looking at one that has the Sam Colt sig on the backstrap. Guy has it listed as a 2nd gen. I was thinking that would be a third gen ?

CameronP · April 7, 2011, 10:31 AM

I almost got bitten with this 2 and 3 generation "colt" bug. Thanks to this thread and a lot of rational self talk I came to a conclusion that satisfied ME.
Obviously, everyone has their own ideas.

No way can I personally afford to spend $600 plus on an item that has Colt stamped on it, I had to settle on a second best. I was lucky enough to run across a Cimarron 1860 Civilian Army. It satisfied my particular bag of personal wants: no extraneous stampings and good fit and finish.

Truth be said though, I would dearly love to own an original Colt with historical ambiance.

Bishop Creek · April 7, 2011, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Help a confused old guy out. Were any of the Walkers made in the 2nd gen run ? Not a Dragoon, but the Walker with no gizmo under the bbl to hold the loading lever. I'm assuming 1st gen refers to the original 1800s production ? I'm looking at one that has the Sam Colt sig on the backstrap. Guy has it listed as a 2nd gen. I was thinking that would be a third gen ?

Yes, first generation refers to the original 19th Century pistols. Colt made 2nd Gen Walkers in 1980 to '82. Colt Blackpowder introduced the 3rd Gen aka: Signature Series Walker in 1994. If it has Sam Colt's signature on the backstrap it is a Signature Series or 3rd Gen pistol.

Hawg · April 7, 2011, 11:00 AM

Quote:

I'm looking at one that has the Sam Colt sig on the backstrap.

It is a third gen.

Bishop Creek · April 7, 2011, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Is a Schrade knife a Schrade knife when they are now made in China?

The difference is that the same person, Lou Imperato, that made the Colt "F" 2nd Generation pistols also made the Signature Series pistols. They weren't made in China but in New York.

Hawg · April 7, 2011, 11:07 AM

When the third gens first came out they had copied the second gen literature word for word including warranty information. Colt I know put at least one disclaimer out in Guns and Ammo magazine saying they didn't make them, they wouldn't warranty them and they wouldn't repair them. A factory letter has information about the finish, grips, where it was sent to, etc. How they letter one when they don't have the information? It's like saying a Colt Sistema is a real Colt because they were licensed by Colt and even made on Colt machinery.
Colt had a deal with Uberti to buy the parts for the second gens. Colt did the final fit, finish and assembly. They handled the marketing and everything else. Colt Black Powder Arms(not affiliated with Colt in any way)contacted Colt and bought the rights to use the Colt name. Colt may have even gotten a percentage of sales but that's all Colt did. They just sold the right to use their name.

Bishop Creek · April 7, 2011, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Colt had a deal with Uberti to buy the parts for the second gens. Colt did the final fit, finish and assembly.

Not completely true. Only the "C" series pistols in the early '70s were made by Colt at their factory from Uberti parts. The "F" series 2nd Gen pistols were all made by Lou Imperato at his Iver Johnson Arms Company in New Jersey under contract from Colt. They used rough cast Uberti barrels and cylinders but made the frames at Iver Johnson. With the exception of a few in the white models sent to the Colt Custom Shop for special order custom grips and finishing, all of the "F" series 2nd Gen pistols were fit and finished at Iver Johnson, then sent to Colt for final inspection before being shipped out.

For this reason, some purists consider only the “C” series to be “real” Colts and the “F” series 2nd Gen guns as Iver Johnson products. Colt never had a contract with Uberti; the first "C" series Uberti parts were provided to Colt by Val Forgett, founder of Navy Arms Company who helped Colt produce these revolvers. Ironically, with the exception of the Uberti cylinders and barrels, all the "F" series 2nd Gen guns were made with parts manufactured by Imperato's Iver Johnson; the frames, backstraps, springs, nipples, even the screws. So if you want an almost all American made cap and ball pistol, the "F" series 2nd Gen Colt is the way to go.

Fingers McGee · April 7, 2011, 04:24 PM

Quote:

No fingers, the 1851 has been fired 6 rounds-and a true collector will notice some minor tiks. I do have original box, papers, wrapping. Will sell to you for reasonabl price if you desire.

Thanks. I'll wait till I find a NIB model. Already have one with an almost imperceptable turn line; but, it's there so it's not NIB

Hardy · April 7, 2011, 06:23 PM

Bishop, Send me your email to [email protected] or call at 864 4157463 before 4 Eastern Standard.

I can not compete with Cabella. We keep 2 in store and only price them up slightly. Nothing against Cabella, and I do a lot of biz w/them. They buy in mass. Some guns are fine but others are not. They are more than happy to have you return one if it is not up to par. In the last 20 months 1/3 have been sent back and we kept the others.

Our store is trying to feature guns (gooduns at below internet prices) either Uberti or Piettas fom Pietta and 3rd gen colts. I have a back order for a Uberti london steel navy 36. I will pay more for it than you can buy guns from Cabella--but our customers have to pay for quality and collectibility. WHAT EVER was posted: 3rd gen colts are in demand with bp shooters and collectors that walk in the door. I guess I'm gonna have to let go of my 2nd's except RELEE

There is a pecking order in these. 1st is Cabella box, 2nd is in Traditions box, 3rd is in Pietta box, 4th is in Colt 3rd, 5th is 2nd gen, and 6th is !st gens. The pecking order goes from worst to best. I can not help what you read and know, I can only go on what customers want and what I want and demand. I cannot buy 30 guns from Cabella and put them in display. Why? they will go on Cabella sight and buy them there. I have to have others. If the 3rds are what a lot of you folks bash --then don't buy them but there are those that do/ Just as some want Piettas in a Tradition set than a Cabella. Whose to say they are not the same gun. Personally, I like collectibles. I don't shoot 3rds or 2nds. (I used to

I( have an 1860 army (Pietta from Tradition) w/ fluted cylinder and white sim ivory grips. I have an 1861 Uberti navy 36 c. I also have conversion R/D cylinders for both along w/ BP cylinders. That is all I need. By the way, in my opinion, the 1861 36c navy is the best and most fun and most accurate

OK, Don't buy those 3rds if you agree with previous posts. But I buy them. I like them. I like em all

WBH

junkman_01 · April 7, 2011, 07:03 PM

Hardy,

No one here said you shouldn't like the Colt marked guns. No one here said you shouldn't stock what your customers want. After all, you are in business.
All we were trying to do is get the 'history' of these guns straight and true.
Some people will make themselves believe that these Colt marked guns are real Colts and some will not believe it. In any case, they are collectible, and a piece of the Colt 'heritage'. I do admire you for stocking what your customers want, even if they do not know or care about the real story.

Hardy · April 7, 2011, 07:56 PM

That is all we can do. Thanks JM. It really isn't a biz that makes money, but more of a sideline hobby and we are the only ones I know of offering these in my area retail. Just trying to offer the best that we can afford. You understand. I will not buy a 3rd for more than $250 if it comes in a cracked box . I think the box with liner uncracked along w/shipping box is the key for this gun to have value over $500. And it does say Colt on them. I'm still learning and learning a lot from all these posts. Thank you everyone. You know what JunkM, it ain't all that easy finding these 3rds offered anymore at a good price!

Hardy · April 7, 2011, 08:07 PM

Oh,I actually thought they were real colts made by Uberti at the get go. I guess they are what they are. We have the colt manuals, the 3rd gen catelogue and the printed post of colt re-issues; so customers can read them and most have done their due diligence. They know what they want, Newbies want the $150 gun

I am just trying to keep above water without making anybody unhappy. So Jkmn , you're saying you ain't gonna buy that marine dragoon from me! LOL Or are you

Bishop Creek · April 7, 2011, 09:01 PM

Quote:

If the 3rds are what a lot of you folks bash --then don't buy them but there are those that do;...

Hardy, did you read what I wrote about them? I think the Signature Series are great guns. I have owned three of them over the years (still have the 1860 Army) plus two 2nd Gen "F" series Colts. I don't collect them, I shoot 'em which is why I don't care if the boxes are smashed or even missing.

Hardy · April 7, 2011, 09:29 PM

Yes Bishop and I hope my server is up tomorrrow. I have a fine line on 3rd gen accessories too. I want to sell my 2nd gen colt navy and baby dragoon. I do want to keep the RE Lee though. I have box wrappings, paperwork on the 2nd navy but it has been fired. The Baby has not--or not to my knowledge but it too is not perfectly pristine and I'll price them according to what is fair. Post yu pics tommorow

Bishop Creek · April 7, 2011, 09:47 PM

Hardy,

Like to see the pics. Here is my 2nd Gen Colt's 1860 Army. I have fired nearly 800 round balls through it:

Hardy · April 8, 2011, 03:31 PM

Those are GREAT Pics. My daughter is a photographer. I can't wait to show her your expertise in camera.

Did you get my email reply

WBH

bigbuck007 · March 5, 2012, 09:59 AM

Hello,

I am Palatine Tom from Bavaria,

this is one of my beauties: What is it

l need help please. I need a PDF of the Colt manual and the other documents provided with this Colt. Maybe someone can help.

Greetings

gyvel · March 5, 2012, 10:22 AM

Quote:

this is one of my beauties: What is it

More pics would help, but it seems to be an Italian reproduction of an 1860 Army.

Beagle333 · March 5, 2012, 10:53 AM

Hi BigBuck007,
Welcome to the forum.

Is that a 1860 Colt US Cavalry Commemorative?

Fingers McGee · March 5, 2012, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beagle333

Hi BigBuck007,
Welcome to the forum.

Is that a 1860 Colt US Cavalry Commemorative?

It is a 2nd Gen Colt Cavalry Commemorative revolver. Question now is, do you have the complete set, or just one revolver?

And, Welcome to the forum BigBuck.

bigbuck007 · April 10, 2012, 04:00 AM

Hello,

sorry for my late reply.

Yes i have the complete set and it is a dream to shoot it.

I have to make one thing to the cylinder chambers => Extent the chambers to match better to the barrel diameter because otherwise the calibrated bullets are to small for the barrel

Thank you for such a great forum.

greetings

bigbuck

April 7, 2011, 07:52 AM	#78
junkman_01 Junior member Join Date: November 9, 2010 Location: Florida Posts: 260	Hardy, Some of us have a different take on this matter than you do. We have just as much right to express our views as you do in this venue. You have provided no proof to back up your claim, other than "I was told....". Just because it says Colt on it makes it collectible, but doesn't mean that Colt had anything to do with the manufacturing, inspection, or sale of these guns. Same as Bell and HOWELL!. BTW, they are very nice guns. Last edited by junkman_01; April 7, 2011 at 07:57 AM.

April 7, 2011, 11:07 AM	#85
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,189	When the third gens first came out they had copied the second gen literature word for word including warranty information. Colt I know put at least one disclaimer out in Guns and Ammo magazine saying they didn't make them, they wouldn't warranty them and they wouldn't repair them. A factory letter has information about the finish, grips, where it was sent to, etc. How they letter one when they don't have the information? It's like saying a Colt Sistema is a real Colt because they were licensed by Colt and even made on Colt machinery. Colt had a deal with Uberti to buy the parts for the second gens. Colt did the final fit, finish and assembly. They handled the marketing and everything else. Colt Black Powder Arms(not affiliated with Colt in any way)contacted Colt and bought the rights to use the Colt name. Colt may have even gotten a percentage of sales but that's all Colt did. They just sold the right to use their name. Last edited by Hawg; April 7, 2011 at 11:13 AM.

April 7, 2011, 09:47 PM	#94
Bishop Creek Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2011 Posts: 566	Hardy, Like to see the pics. Here is my 2nd Gen Colt's 1860 Army. I have fired nearly 800 round balls through it: Last edited by Bishop Creek; April 7, 2011 at 10:01 PM.

April 6, 2011, 11:11 PM	#76
Hardy Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 709	Bishop--I got a 3rd gen 51 navy(unturned nib) coming in with uncracked box /white shipping box/ colt wooden display case and all colt accessories for box. You interested. Actually I want it. But I have same coming w/ 1849 pocket. I'll giv one up

April 6, 2011, 11:34 PM	#77
Bishop Creek Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2011 Posts: 566	Hardy, send me a PM with prices on the '51 and '49, and on the fired '51 Navy too ( I can only afford one of them, maybe).

April 7, 2011, 10:31 AM	#81
CameronP Member Join Date: August 25, 2010 Location: West Jordan, Utah Posts: 71	I almost got bitten with this 2 and 3 generation "colt" bug. Thanks to this thread and a lot of rational self talk I came to a conclusion that satisfied ME. Obviously, everyone has their own ideas. No way can I personally afford to spend $600 plus on an item that has Colt stamped on it, I had to settle on a second best. I was lucky enough to run across a Cimarron 1860 Civilian Army. It satisfied my particular bag of personal wants: no extraneous stampings and good fit and finish. Truth be said though, I would dearly love to own an original Colt with historical ambiance.

April 7, 2011, 06:23 PM	#88
Hardy Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 709	Bishop, Send me your email to [email protected] or call at 864 4157463 before 4 Eastern Standard. I can not compete with Cabella. We keep 2 in store and only price them up slightly. Nothing against Cabella, and I do a lot of biz w/them. They buy in mass. Some guns are fine but others are not. They are more than happy to have you return one if it is not up to par. In the last 20 months 1/3 have been sent back and we kept the others. Our store is trying to feature guns (gooduns at below internet prices) either Uberti or Piettas fom Pietta and 3rd gen colts. I have a back order for a Uberti london steel navy 36. I will pay more for it than you can buy guns from Cabella--but our customers have to pay for quality and collectibility. WHAT EVER was posted: 3rd gen colts are in demand with bp shooters and collectors that walk in the door. I guess I'm gonna have to let go of my 2nd's except RELEE There is a pecking order in these. 1st is Cabella box, 2nd is in Traditions box, 3rd is in Pietta box, 4th is in Colt 3rd, 5th is 2nd gen, and 6th is !st gens. The pecking order goes from worst to best. I can not help what you read and know, I can only go on what customers want and what I want and demand. I cannot buy 30 guns from Cabella and put them in display. Why? they will go on Cabella sight and buy them there. I have to have others. If the 3rds are what a lot of you folks bash --then don't buy them but there are those that do/ Just as some want Piettas in a Tradition set than a Cabella. Whose to say they are not the same gun. Personally, I like collectibles. I don't shoot 3rds or 2nds. (I used to I( have an 1860 army (Pietta from Tradition) w/ fluted cylinder and white sim ivory grips. I have an 1861 Uberti navy 36 c. I also have conversion R/D cylinders for both along w/ BP cylinders. That is all I need. By the way, in my opinion, the 1861 36c navy is the best and most fun and most accurate OK, Don't buy those 3rds if you agree with previous posts. But I buy them. I like them. I like em all WBH

April 7, 2011, 07:03 PM	#89
junkman_01 Junior member Join Date: November 9, 2010 Location: Florida Posts: 260	Hardy, No one here said you shouldn't like the Colt marked guns. No one here said you shouldn't stock what your customers want. After all, you are in business. All we were trying to do is get the 'history' of these guns straight and true. Some people will make themselves believe that these Colt marked guns are real Colts and some will not believe it. In any case, they are collectible, and a piece of the Colt 'heritage'. I do admire you for stocking what your customers want, even if they do not know or care about the real story.

April 7, 2011, 07:56 PM	#90
Hardy Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 709	That is all we can do. Thanks JM. It really isn't a biz that makes money, but more of a sideline hobby and we are the only ones I know of offering these in my area retail. Just trying to offer the best that we can afford. You understand. I will not buy a 3rd for more than $250 if it comes in a cracked box . I think the box with liner uncracked along w/shipping box is the key for this gun to have value over $500. And it does say Colt on them. I'm still learning and learning a lot from all these posts. Thank you everyone. You know what JunkM, it ain't all that easy finding these 3rds offered anymore at a good price!

April 7, 2011, 08:07 PM	#91
Hardy Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 709	Oh,I actually thought they were real colts made by Uberti at the get go. I guess they are what they are. We have the colt manuals, the 3rd gen catelogue and the printed post of colt re-issues; so customers can read them and most have done their due diligence. They know what they want, Newbies want the $150 gun I am just trying to keep above water without making anybody unhappy. So Jkmn , you're saying you ain't gonna buy that marine dragoon from me! LOL Or are you

April 7, 2011, 09:29 PM	#93
Hardy Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 709	Yes Bishop and I hope my server is up tomorrrow. I have a fine line on 3rd gen accessories too. I want to sell my 2nd gen colt navy and baby dragoon. I do want to keep the RE Lee though. I have box wrappings, paperwork on the 2nd navy but it has been fired. The Baby has not--or not to my knowledge but it too is not perfectly pristine and I'll price them according to what is fair. Post yu pics tommorow

April 8, 2011, 03:31 PM	#95
Hardy Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 709	Those are GREAT Pics. My daughter is a photographer. I can't wait to show her your expertise in camera. Did you get my email reply WBH

March 5, 2012, 10:53 AM	#98
Beagle333 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2012 Location: Auburn, AL. Posts: 2,332	Hi BigBuck007, Welcome to the forum. Is that a 1860 Colt US Cavalry Commemorative?

April 10, 2012, 04:00 AM	#100
bigbuck007 Member Join Date: March 5, 2012 Location: Bavaria Posts: 67	Hello, sorry for my late reply. Yes i have the complete set and it is a dream to shoot it. I have to make one thing to the cylinder chambers => Extent the chambers to match better to the barrel diameter because otherwise the calibrated bullets are to small for the barrel Thank you for such a great forum. greetings bigbuck