"No Glass" Loads for Two Classics

ligonierbill · April 7, 2010, 09:24 AM

I have two rifles that do not mount scopes: Savage 99D in .300 Savage and a Mauser 98 in 8x57. The Savage is original with buckhorn rear and dovetail-mounted bead front. The Mauser was sporterized many years ago, but still retains the military safety. It does have a good rear aperture and front bead. So, no scopes, limiting these old eyes to about 200 yards. Since trajectory isn't much of an issue at that range, I am looking at relatively heavy bullets, 180's for the Savage and 170-200 for the Mauser. Any favorite loads out there?

One more thing: I have a good 165 grain load for the Savage, but it really shoots high. I'm guessing those old sights were "regulated" for slower, heavier bullets.

**Mike Irwin** · April 7, 2010, 09:36 AM

I never cared much for the performance of 180-gr. bullets in my 99EG.

With 150s to 165s, though, it absolutely sings.

**Unclenick** · April 7, 2010, 10:11 AM

At short ranges, heavier bullets tend to shoot higher due to recoil elevating the muzzle further during the time the bullet is still in the barrel. At long range they drop lower due to the lower velocity and more arcing trajectory they get overall. Thus, your Savage sights may be regulated for 150's. Ideally, for deer hunting with a 200 yard maximum range, you'd like the bullet to be on zero at about 170 yards. That should put it about equally above the sight line at apogee and low at 200. Both errors will be under 2", and ignorable for the deer size 8" kill zone.

ligonierbill · April 7, 2010, 10:32 AM

Good point. I'll try some 150's before I order up the 180's. I think I still have some under the bench.

**Mike Irwin** · April 7, 2010, 10:48 AM

My issues with performance of the 180s in my 99 was overall group size. I don't think the rifling twist really liked the longer, heavier bullets.

I also had to seat them pretty deeply in the case to get them to function through the action. That takes up powder space.

I was very hard pressed to come close to the velocity figures being quoted in my loading manuals.

With 150s and 165s, though, groups were excellent and velocity was also very good.

ligonierbill · April 9, 2010, 01:10 PM

I load 165 grain Speer over 42.7 grains of Reloder 15 for an honest 2,600 fps in the Savage. That is the max in the Hornady manual; Speer goes to 44 grains and a compressed load. What is your favorite load for 150's? Only Hornady lists 150/Re15 loads, with a max of 43.1. All three of my manuals list a 150/IMR 4064 load with the following maximums: Nosler 40.0, Speer 41.5, and Hornady 44.0. I keep both powders. That Hornady load seems unusually stiff, and indeed they report 2,700 with 42.5 grains. That being the "original" Savage advertised velocity, it seems like a good target. I was thinking to buy some Remington Core-Lokt bullets. Although I have no published loads for them, I should be able to work one up. They're cheap, and at this modest range and velocity, they should work well. Any advice?

**Unclenick** · April 9, 2010, 01:30 PM

The CoreLokt, being an older design, is often a little shorter and lower in BC for weight than some others. That shorter length will let you use slightly more powder at any given pressure. But I never like to push pressure without a reason. I would just run the 4064 or the RL15 through a round robin a la Newberry OCW method, and use the best accuracy load that results. Either powder should be good for the application.

**Mike Irwin** · April 9, 2010, 01:33 PM

I used a Hornady 150-gr. bullet and, IIRC 41.5 grains of 4064.

It shot very well for me.

ligonierbill · April 9, 2010, 02:58 PM

Thanks. IMR 4064 seems to be a good powder for both rifles. One powder not in my manuals for either is Hodgdon BL-C(2). The Hodgdon website lists it for 8x57 with >100 fps advantage over everything else for 170-180 grain bullets. Anyone run this powder in 8x57?

**Mike Irwin** · April 9, 2010, 03:07 PM

I've used Bl-C before.

Never impressed me so I didn't keep with it.

ligonierbill · April 10, 2010, 12:28 PM

Well, I gave the Savage 150's a try this morning (Remington commercial load) and sure enough, they fell right in. I just wish the sights were better--like the front bead, but do not like the buckhorn rear. Oh well, they're not changing. Now the aperture and bead on the Mauser I like, and I used to shoot well with it long ago. So, duplicating a commercial .300 Savage load with 150 grain bullets at 2,600-2,700 fps shouldn't be too hard. Still looking for help on the Mauser. Any favorites with 170-180 grain bullets? Right now, I will probably go with IMR 4064 and Sierra 175 Pro Hunters.

Scorch · April 10, 2010, 12:34 PM

I loaded 8X57 with Sierra 175 gr over 50.0 gr of IMR 4320 for years. Shot very well.

I may start loading that load again very soon, it looks like I will end up building myself a rifle in 8X57.

**Mike Irwin** · April 10, 2010, 01:27 PM

You can still buy receiver sights for Savage Model 99 rifles.

You can buy a new Williams - http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=678412

Or you can look around for one of the older Redfields, which is what I put on my 99EG.

They are FAR better than the Buckhorns.

April 7, 2010, 09:24 AM	#1
ligonierbill Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2007 Posts: 2,455	"No Glass" Loads for Two Classics I have two rifles that do not mount scopes: Savage 99D in .300 Savage and a Mauser 98 in 8x57. The Savage is original with buckhorn rear and dovetail-mounted bead front. The Mauser was sporterized many years ago, but still retains the military safety. It does have a good rear aperture and front bead. So, no scopes, limiting these old eyes to about 200 yards. Since trajectory isn't much of an issue at that range, I am looking at relatively heavy bullets, 180's for the Savage and 170-200 for the Mauser. Any favorite loads out there? One more thing: I have a good 165 grain load for the Savage, but it really shoots high. I'm guessing those old sights were "regulated" for slower, heavier bullets.

April 7, 2010, 09:36 AM	#2
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,388	I never cared much for the performance of 180-gr. bullets in my 99EG. With 150s to 165s, though, it absolutely sings. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

April 7, 2010, 10:11 AM	#3
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	At short ranges, heavier bullets tend to shoot higher due to recoil elevating the muzzle further during the time the bullet is still in the barrel. At long range they drop lower due to the lower velocity and more arcing trajectory they get overall. Thus, your Savage sights may be regulated for 150's. Ideally, for deer hunting with a 200 yard maximum range, you'd like the bullet to be on zero at about 170 yards. That should put it about equally above the sight line at apogee and low at 200. Both errors will be under 2", and ignorable for the deer size 8" kill zone. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

April 7, 2010, 10:48 AM	#5
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,388	My issues with performance of the 180s in my 99 was overall group size. I don't think the rifling twist really liked the longer, heavier bullets. I also had to seat them pretty deeply in the case to get them to function through the action. That takes up powder space. I was very hard pressed to come close to the velocity figures being quoted in my loading manuals. With 150s and 165s, though, groups were excellent and velocity was also very good. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

April 9, 2010, 01:30 PM	#7
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	The CoreLokt, being an older design, is often a little shorter and lower in BC for weight than some others. That shorter length will let you use slightly more powder at any given pressure. But I never like to push pressure without a reason. I would just run the 4064 or the RL15 through a round robin a la Newberry OCW method, and use the best accuracy load that results. Either powder should be good for the application. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

April 7, 2010, 10:32 AM	#4
ligonierbill Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2007 Posts: 2,455	Good point. I'll try some 150's before I order up the 180's. I think I still have some under the bench.

April 9, 2010, 01:10 PM	#6
ligonierbill Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2007 Posts: 2,455	I load 165 grain Speer over 42.7 grains of Reloder 15 for an honest 2,600 fps in the Savage. That is the max in the Hornady manual; Speer goes to 44 grains and a compressed load. What is your favorite load for 150's? Only Hornady lists 150/Re15 loads, with a max of 43.1. All three of my manuals list a 150/IMR 4064 load with the following maximums: Nosler 40.0, Speer 41.5, and Hornady 44.0. I keep both powders. That Hornady load seems unusually stiff, and indeed they report 2,700 with 42.5 grains. That being the "original" Savage advertised velocity, it seems like a good target. I was thinking to buy some Remington Core-Lokt bullets. Although I have no published loads for them, I should be able to work one up. They're cheap, and at this modest range and velocity, they should work well. Any advice?

April 9, 2010, 01:33 PM	#8
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,388	I used a Hornady 150-gr. bullet and, IIRC 41.5 grains of 4064. It shot very well for me. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

April 9, 2010, 02:58 PM	#9
ligonierbill Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2007 Posts: 2,455	Thanks. IMR 4064 seems to be a good powder for both rifles. One powder not in my manuals for either is Hodgdon BL-C(2). The Hodgdon website lists it for 8x57 with >100 fps advantage over everything else for 170-180 grain bullets. Anyone run this powder in 8x57?

April 9, 2010, 03:07 PM	#10
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,388	I've used Bl-C before. Never impressed me so I didn't keep with it. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

April 10, 2010, 12:28 PM	#11
ligonierbill Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2007 Posts: 2,455	Well, I gave the Savage 150's a try this morning (Remington commercial load) and sure enough, they fell right in. I just wish the sights were better--like the front bead, but do not like the buckhorn rear. Oh well, they're not changing. Now the aperture and bead on the Mauser I like, and I used to shoot well with it long ago. So, duplicating a commercial .300 Savage load with 150 grain bullets at 2,600-2,700 fps shouldn't be too hard. Still looking for help on the Mauser. Any favorites with 170-180 grain bullets? Right now, I will probably go with IMR 4064 and Sierra 175 Pro Hunters.

April 10, 2010, 12:34 PM	#12
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	I loaded 8X57 with Sierra 175 gr over 50.0 gr of IMR 4320 for years. Shot very well. I may start loading that load again very soon, it looks like I will end up building myself a rifle in 8X57. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

April 10, 2010, 01:27 PM	#13
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,388	You can still buy receiver sights for Savage Model 99 rifles. You can buy a new Williams - http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=678412 Or you can look around for one of the older Redfields, which is what I put on my 99EG. They are FAR better than the Buckhorns. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.