Extended Report on Estate Reduced-Recoil Buckshot (IMPORTANT!!!) - Page 2

Dave McC · February 12, 2001, 01:29 PM

You're very welcome. If the weather holds tomorrow, I'll go to the range and do the tests. Posting tomorrow night if I do....

hasher · February 12, 2001, 06:56 PM

OK

I just ordered a case of the tactical and a case of the regular 00. I hope this stuff works. I will be trying it in an M1 Super 90 and a custom 870.

Does anyone know where to get some more of the Fiochhi 1 1/4 oz. slugs. I bought 1250 boxes on closeout several years ago and am almost out.

Or any really good deal on slugs.

Al Thompson · February 12, 2001, 10:26 PM

Try a Dick's Outdoor store - they had a special (unadvertised) on KO slugs for 1.49 a box. Good thread(s) on the forum about that. (use the search key)

Giz

Dave McC · February 13, 2001, 04:45 PM

OK, folks, here's what happened in my range test...

Using my chokeless HD 870, I set up a target frame at 25 yards,and used a benchrest postion to eliminate as much wavering as possible. I first shot some of my old duty ammo, and it SEEMED to pattern as I was used to,20-24" at that distance. I use the SEEMED because,after a little discussion with a Rangemaster in a difficult mood, I had to use the standard target frame, and not the cardboard box I wanted to. A 16" wide fame combined with my usual patterns meant some of the pellets were missing the frame, so this part has to be considered as somewhat vague.

After firing three rounds of the duty stuff(Winchester 9 pellet 00, the generic stuff, not premium) I marked the target and switched to the Estate ammo. Firing three shots at the same POA, I waited until it was time for a target pull and measured the results. Then I repeated the Estate part of the test again and pulled the target.

Here's the results.

The furthest pellet from POI was 10 1/2" away. Total patterns ran 14 inches for the first three shot group,15 3/4" for the second one. Counting the holes revealed ALL pellets were in the patterns, no flyers.24/24 twice.

Most pellets were on a single 8 1/2X 11" piece of paper at POA, quite exceptional performance....

I'm impressed. 25 yards patterns like this from an unchoked shotgun are the best results I've had in testing quite a few buck loads including the premium stuff.

I then dissected one round. Yup, 8 pellets packed in the usual white buffering material. Oh yes,while recoil is not a problem with this ultra heavy shotgun(9 1/2lbs), it was noticeably lighter with the Estate loads.Pellets showed little deformation, no flat spots,etc.

Conclusion:

For HD/tactical use, this stuff may be one of the best choices. Only individual testing in a particular shotgun can ensure that your results are similiar.

I've a practical seminar/match coming up in April. I think I'll use this load then and if it functions as it should in feeding and so on, I may switch to it for HD and standby ammo.

Laissez, hope this helps you out.....

DML · February 14, 2001, 10:15 PM

I received my order of Estate Tactical buck today. Two cases/500 shells for a bit less then $150. Shipping was about $35. I just glanced at the invoice so I don't remember the exact numbers. Anyway, if you can get together with a few other guys and place a large order the shipping cost will be much cheaper.

By the way, I'm in Kalifornia, so I pay maximum UPS charges.

laissezfirearm · February 16, 2001, 10:37 AM

Dave McC wrote:

>I then dissected one round. Yup, 8 pellets
>packed in the usual white buffering material.

That MAY be what I was afraid of. They might be jacking with the formula. All of mine from case lot #29908006 had *nine* 00 pellets. Last two cases, same.

Their "Eight-Ball" low-recoil loads have eight 00 pellets.

What does your box say? Mine is "S.W.A.T. Buckshot Load". Light tan box, red, black and dark green letters. And the case lot # is on the top flap.

Of course, they might have put the wrong load into the right box. Ask Mr. Awerbuck. He sees it all the time.

Any responses should be sent to me via e-mail, BTW. No knock on you folks, but I obviously don't have the kind of laid-back temperament required for this sort of group. I'm a technical writer by profession, so if folks don't get my point, or write recklessly -- e.g., giving legal-type advice without disclaimers featuring plenty of caps and exclamation marks -- I flip out.

This was just my last loose end to clear up.

To paraphrase a line from *Videodrome*, my favored mode of discourse is the extended monologue. So keep an eye out for the page, which should be back up again soon on a friendlier ISP.

Dave McC · February 16, 2001, 05:19 PM

OK, Laissez, the case # is 2990800611. I just checked, cut three shells apart and two had 9 pellets, one 8. Poor QC, IMO.

Otherwise, good performance, good price...

Gary H · February 16, 2001, 05:40 PM

This is from the Natchez website:
"Ground Freight
UPS Freight is calculated from actual UPS ground shipping charges according to your zip code location & weight of the package(s). UPS insurance is based on the total dollar amount of the merchandise. In addition please allow $3.90 handling on each credit card order. The freight total on the shopping cart is closely estimated, but already includes the handling. When you receive your package the invoice included will show the handling and freight separately.

The UPS insurance charge is currently .35¢ per $100 of merchandise. We ship packages insured for your protection should they become lost or damaged during shipment. If the insurance on your shopping cart order does not match .35¢ per $100, DON'T PANIC! Your final order confirmation email and packaged invoice will both reflect the correct charge. Again, the shopping cart freight charges are closely estimated."

Perhaps some of the folks are incorrectly adding hazardous shipping charges.

Dave McC · February 17, 2001, 06:31 AM

Gary, at the door, 100 rounds of Estate Tactical 00 ran $28 and change. I live in Md, so I paid some shippping charges....

hasher · February 21, 2001, 07:29 PM

Here are the results from my test.

All targets were shot at 25 yards from a bench rest position. Both guns were equipped
with ghost ring sights and a 1” orange dot was used for a more refined aiming point.
Guns used were a 20” barrels 870 and a 20” Benelli M1 Super 90. Both guns were
choked Improved Cylinder. Each load was fired 5 times at the same target and a
template was place over the target. I found the center of each pattern and measured
from there to allow for different points of impact with different loads. A 6” and 12”
circle was used for a template.

Remington Reduced Recoil Tactical 00 Buck Shot 9 pellet load 45 pellets total

Number of pellets % Number of pellets %
6” 12”

870 10 22% 25 56%
Benelli 8 18% 26 58%

Winchester 00 Buck standard load 9 pellet load 45 pellets total

870 11 24% 20 44%
Benelli 16 37% 29 64%

Seller & Belloit)) buck 12 pellet load 60 pellets total

870 19 32% 40 67%
Benelli 1 2% 17 28%

Federal Reduced Recoil #4 tactical Buckshot 27 pellet load 135 pellets total

870 22 16% 50 37%
Benelli 13 10% 65 48%

Winchester #4 Buck Standard Load 27 pellets 135 total

870 14 10% 41 30%
Benelli 14 10% 35 26%

Here is the data for the Estate 00 Buck and the 00 SWAT Tactical Buckshot.

Estate 00 Buckshot 9-pellet load 45 pellets total

870 12 27% 30 67%
Benelli 13 29% 26 58%

Estate 00 Swat Tactical Reduced Recoil 9 pellet load 45 pellets total

870 19 42% 35 78%
Benelli 21 47% 30 67%

This stuff shoots very clean and will cycle a Benelli. I will be ordering several more cases of this stuff.

BillX · March 4, 2001, 08:41 PM

I checked their website and it seems estate shotgun ammo is no longer on sale. Does anyone know for sure?

AAshooter · March 9, 2001, 09:56 AM

Yes, the sale is over. I was disappointed I didn't pick some up at those prices.

I just returned from a 4-day tactical shotgun class at Frontsight and the Estates buck is pretty impressive, especially given the price. I was shooting an Vang Comp 870 and getting patterns of about 8-10" at 25 meters.

After seeing a variety of tactical ammo, Estates is hard to beat and I will never buy S&B buck for anything serious.

Dave McC · March 10, 2001, 09:24 AM

On another BB, someone has reported that Estate had been bought out by Federal, and no Estate ammo will be offered.

Anyone hear about this?

GGGLOCK · May 26, 2001, 11:59 AM

I purchased 300 rds of Estate SWAT 00 for a recent shotgun course. Patterned from 7 meters to 30 meters. This stuff absolutely ROCKS!!!

. No need for a Vang job on this combo!

The gun was a Benelli M1S90 with the Modified choke installed. POA was COM from an offhand position. Results were as follows:

7 meters: max spread = 2.5"
10 meters: max spread = 3.0"
15 meters: max spread = 4.5"
20 meters: max spread = 5.0"
25 meters: max spread = 9.5"
30 meters: max spread = 15.25

Photos of my patterning targets can be seen at Estate SWAT 00 / Mod. Choke M1S90 .

Time to order a few more cases!

February 16, 2001, 05:40 PM	#33
Gary H Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2000 Location: Texas Posts: 2,267	Natchez Shipping = UPS charges This is from the Natchez website: "Ground Freight UPS Freight is calculated from actual UPS ground shipping charges according to your zip code location & weight of the package(s). UPS insurance is based on the total dollar amount of the merchandise. In addition please allow $3.90 handling on each credit card order. The freight total on the shopping cart is closely estimated, but already includes the handling. When you receive your package the invoice included will show the handling and freight separately. The UPS insurance charge is currently .35¢ per $100 of merchandise. We ship packages insured for your protection should they become lost or damaged during shipment. If the insurance on your shopping cart order does not match .35¢ per $100, DON'T PANIC! Your final order confirmation email and packaged invoice will both reflect the correct charge. Again, the shopping cart freight charges are closely estimated." Perhaps some of the folks are incorrectly adding hazardous shipping charges.

March 4, 2001, 08:41 PM	#36
BillX Senior Member Join Date: April 30, 2000 Location: Boilermaker Country, Indiana Posts: 131	Estate off sale at Natchez? I checked their website and it seems estate shotgun ammo is no longer on sale. Does anyone know for sure? __________________ "Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." H.L. Mencken

March 9, 2001, 09:56 AM	#37
AAshooter Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2001 Posts: 379	Natchez Sale Over Yes, the sale is over. I was disappointed I didn't pick some up at those prices. I just returned from a 4-day tactical shotgun class at Frontsight and the Estates buck is pretty impressive, especially given the price. I was shooting an Vang Comp 870 and getting patterns of about 8-10" at 25 meters. After seeing a variety of tactical ammo, Estates is hard to beat and I will never buy S&B buck for anything serious.

May 26, 2001, 11:59 AM	#39
GGGLOCK Member Join Date: July 13, 2000 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 77	Modified Choke M1S90 with Estate SWAT 00 I purchased 300 rds of Estate SWAT 00 for a recent shotgun course. Patterned from 7 meters to 30 meters. This stuff absolutely ROCKS!!! . No need for a Vang job on this combo! The gun was a Benelli M1S90 with the Modified choke installed. POA was COM from an offhand position. Results were as follows: 7 meters: max spread = 2.5" 10 meters: max spread = 3.0" 15 meters: max spread = 4.5" 20 meters: max spread = 5.0" 25 meters: max spread = 9.5" 30 meters: max spread = 15.25 Photos of my patterning targets can be seen at Estate SWAT 00 / Mod. Choke M1S90 . Time to order a few more cases!

February 12, 2001, 01:29 PM	#26
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	You're very welcome. If the weather holds tomorrow, I'll go to the range and do the tests. Posting tomorrow night if I do....

February 12, 2001, 06:56 PM	#27
hasher Member Join Date: February 3, 2001 Posts: 34	OK I just ordered a case of the tactical and a case of the regular 00. I hope this stuff works. I will be trying it in an M1 Super 90 and a custom 870. Does anyone know where to get some more of the Fiochhi 1 1/4 oz. slugs. I bought 1250 boxes on closeout several years ago and am almost out. Or any really good deal on slugs.

February 12, 2001, 10:26 PM	#28
Al Thompson Staff Alumnus Join Date: May 2, 1999 Location: South Carolina Posts: 3,611	Try a Dick's Outdoor store - they had a special (unadvertised) on KO slugs for 1.49 a box. Good thread(s) on the forum about that. (use the search key) Giz

February 13, 2001, 04:45 PM	#29
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	OK, folks, here's what happened in my range test... Using my chokeless HD 870, I set up a target frame at 25 yards,and used a benchrest postion to eliminate as much wavering as possible. I first shot some of my old duty ammo, and it SEEMED to pattern as I was used to,20-24" at that distance. I use the SEEMED because,after a little discussion with a Rangemaster in a difficult mood, I had to use the standard target frame, and not the cardboard box I wanted to. A 16" wide fame combined with my usual patterns meant some of the pellets were missing the frame, so this part has to be considered as somewhat vague. After firing three rounds of the duty stuff(Winchester 9 pellet 00, the generic stuff, not premium) I marked the target and switched to the Estate ammo. Firing three shots at the same POA, I waited until it was time for a target pull and measured the results. Then I repeated the Estate part of the test again and pulled the target. Here's the results. The furthest pellet from POI was 10 1/2" away. Total patterns ran 14 inches for the first three shot group,15 3/4" for the second one. Counting the holes revealed ALL pellets were in the patterns, no flyers.24/24 twice. Most pellets were on a single 8 1/2X 11" piece of paper at POA, quite exceptional performance.... I'm impressed. 25 yards patterns like this from an unchoked shotgun are the best results I've had in testing quite a few buck loads including the premium stuff. I then dissected one round. Yup, 8 pellets packed in the usual white buffering material. Oh yes,while recoil is not a problem with this ultra heavy shotgun(9 1/2lbs), it was noticeably lighter with the Estate loads.Pellets showed little deformation, no flat spots,etc. Conclusion: For HD/tactical use, this stuff may be one of the best choices. Only individual testing in a particular shotgun can ensure that your results are similiar. I've a practical seminar/match coming up in April. I think I'll use this load then and if it functions as it should in feeding and so on, I may switch to it for HD and standby ammo. Laissez, hope this helps you out.....

February 14, 2001, 10:15 PM	#30
DML Senior Member Join Date: November 24, 2000 Location: Aridzona Posts: 257	I received my order of Estate Tactical buck today. Two cases/500 shells for a bit less then $150. Shipping was about $35. I just glanced at the invoice so I don't remember the exact numbers. Anyway, if you can get together with a few other guys and place a large order the shipping cost will be much cheaper. By the way, I'm in Kalifornia, so I pay maximum UPS charges.

February 16, 2001, 10:37 AM	#31
laissezfirearm Member Join Date: December 14, 2000 Posts: 50	Dave McC wrote: >I then dissected one round. Yup, 8 pellets >packed in the usual white buffering material. That MAY be what I was afraid of. They might be jacking with the formula. All of mine from case lot #29908006 had nine 00 pellets. Last two cases, same. Their "Eight-Ball" low-recoil loads have eight 00 pellets. What does your box say? Mine is "S.W.A.T. Buckshot Load". Light tan box, red, black and dark green letters. And the case lot # is on the top flap. Of course, they might have put the wrong load into the right box. Ask Mr. Awerbuck. He sees it all the time. Any responses should be sent to me via e-mail, BTW. No knock on you folks, but I obviously don't have the kind of laid-back temperament required for this sort of group. I'm a technical writer by profession, so if folks don't get my point, or write recklessly -- e.g., giving legal-type advice without disclaimers featuring plenty of caps and exclamation marks -- I flip out. This was just my last loose end to clear up. To paraphrase a line from Videodrome, my favored mode of discourse is the extended monologue. So keep an eye out for the page, which should be back up again soon on a friendlier ISP.

February 16, 2001, 05:19 PM	#32
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	OK, Laissez, the case # is 2990800611. I just checked, cut three shells apart and two had 9 pellets, one 8. Poor QC, IMO. Otherwise, good performance, good price...

February 17, 2001, 06:31 AM	#34
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Gary, at the door, 100 rounds of Estate Tactical 00 ran $28 and change. I live in Md, so I paid some shippping charges....

February 21, 2001, 07:29 PM	#35
hasher Member Join Date: February 3, 2001 Posts: 34	Here are the results from my test. All targets were shot at 25 yards from a bench rest position. Both guns were equipped with ghost ring sights and a 1” orange dot was used for a more refined aiming point. Guns used were a 20” barrels 870 and a 20” Benelli M1 Super 90. Both guns were choked Improved Cylinder. Each load was fired 5 times at the same target and a template was place over the target. I found the center of each pattern and measured from there to allow for different points of impact with different loads. A 6” and 12” circle was used for a template. Remington Reduced Recoil Tactical 00 Buck Shot 9 pellet load 45 pellets total Number of pellets % Number of pellets % 6” 12” 870 10 22% 25 56% Benelli 8 18% 26 58% Winchester 00 Buck standard load 9 pellet load 45 pellets total 870 11 24% 20 44% Benelli 16 37% 29 64% Seller & Belloit)) buck 12 pellet load 60 pellets total 870 19 32% 40 67% Benelli 1 2% 17 28% Federal Reduced Recoil #4 tactical Buckshot 27 pellet load 135 pellets total 870 22 16% 50 37% Benelli 13 10% 65 48% Winchester #4 Buck Standard Load 27 pellets 135 total 870 14 10% 41 30% Benelli 14 10% 35 26% Here is the data for the Estate 00 Buck and the 00 SWAT Tactical Buckshot. Estate 00 Buckshot 9-pellet load 45 pellets total 870 12 27% 30 67% Benelli 13 29% 26 58% Estate 00 Swat Tactical Reduced Recoil 9 pellet load 45 pellets total 870 19 42% 35 78% Benelli 21 47% 30 67% This stuff shoots very clean and will cycle a Benelli. I will be ordering several more cases of this stuff.

March 10, 2001, 09:24 AM	#38
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	On another BB, someone has reported that Estate had been bought out by Federal, and no Estate ammo will be offered. Anyone hear about this?