The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old September 30, 2012, 02:29 PM   #26
hogdogs
Staff In Memoriam
 
Join Date: October 31, 2007
Location: Western Florida panhandle
Posts: 11,069
Quote:
How would you identify an intruder.
Positively.... Before firing a shot I would positively ID the target as not being allowed here before sending a round down range...

I choose to live where the likelihood of a person cutting across my property is less than VERY REMOTE so much of that particular risk is mitigated by my choice of residence....

Brent
hogdogs is offline  
Old September 30, 2012, 02:34 PM   #27
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Posts: 12,714
Quote:
Look stupid if it is a racoon.
Racoon burglars/intruders are real. However, they are more easily handled.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6RUY...eature=related

Starts at 0:17 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh8MT...eature=related
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old September 30, 2012, 02:53 PM   #28
wayneinFL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 18, 2004
Posts: 1,944
Quote:
Positively.... Before firing a shot I would positively ID the target as not being allowed here before sending a round down range...
But looking at the case in the OP, how would you change the outcome? Ask the kid to take off the mask first? And when he doesn't, what do you do?
wayneinFL is offline  
Old September 30, 2012, 03:29 PM   #29
manta49
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2011
Location: N Ireland. UK.
Posts: 1,809
What was he doing going to the neighbors house with a gun. He should have rang the police. Going to the neighbors house should have being a last resort.
manta49 is offline  
Old September 30, 2012, 05:32 PM   #30
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 24,928
Quote:
Would this situation have a better ending if cops had shot a guy in a ski mask coming at them with a weapon?
It seems quite likely that had the kid seen flashing lights and uniformed officers he might have reacted differently and might not have been shot at all. Even if he were determined to destroy himself and did force a lethal confrontation, the answer is yes, I think it would be a better ending if the cops had shot him instead of his father. Especially for his father.

As far as the original question. It's hard to identify masked persons--that's the point of a mask.

I think that the best lesson this scenario teaches is that you shouldn't force a confrontation if you don't have to. It's one thing to look stupid if you call the cops over a raccoon, but that doesn't compare to shooting someone when you could have avoided it.
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old September 30, 2012, 08:12 PM   #31
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
Right, but again this situation involved the father going next door at the request of the frightened neighbor, who was not only known to him but also a relative.

I would have done the same, but would have had the neighbor/sister call 911, too.

This situation was really a no-win for the father.

I am normally one of the choir who say to hole up in a safe place, weapon ready, while keeping open comms with the 911 dispatcher. However, this won't work in all circumstances.

For instance, next spring if all goes well I'll be a first-time father. The baby will have its own room as soon as practical, as that is the advice being given to new parents these days. This means that at some point next year, any bump in the night larger than what a toddler would make will require movement on my part, at least enough to take a position covering the stairs (since our bedroom and the child's will be on the second floor).

Luckily, our house is set up in such a way that I can control a chokepoint.

On the other hand, at some point in the future one of my parents or one of my wife's may end up moving in with us. (We assume this will be the case with the survivor of the first one to pass, but that should still be some years off.)

At that point, we'll have a kid in an upstairs bedroom, and an elderly person downstairs. I will no longer be able to simply stay up at the upper landing to the staircase, if I suspect an intrusion.

Some situations don't lend themselves to calling 911 and sitting still.
MLeake is offline  
Old September 30, 2012, 08:23 PM   #32
Tucker 1371
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2008
Location: East TN
Posts: 2,649
Common sense. Lacking it can get you killed. If in 15 years the father hadn't explained to his son why creeping around in black with your face covered at night is a bad idea then the blame lies on him as well. And at 15 even my dumb [self] knew this was a bad idea. Kid HAD to have been up to no good if you ask me.

Am I just heartless? I really can't feel bad for stupid people.

Everyone I know understands that kicking down my door or breaking a window at my apartment is a REALLY bad decision. I make that clear.

Edit: I'm sure I'll catch flak for this, let the poo flinging begin.
__________________
Sgt. of Marines, 5th Award Expert Rifle, 237/250
Expert Pistol, 382/400. D Co, 4th CEB, Engineers UP!!
If you start a thread, be active in it. Don't leave us hanging.
OEF 2011 Sangin, Afg. Molon Labe
Tucker 1371 is offline  
Old September 30, 2012, 08:25 PM   #33
Yacobid
Member
 
Join Date: September 24, 2012
Location: CT
Posts: 21
I am from CT just not that area. I have heard that 2 days before a woman walked in on a robbery in progress and was brutally beaten and raped. So the entire town was on edge
Yacobid is offline  
Old September 30, 2012, 08:29 PM   #34
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 24,928
Quote:
I will no longer be able to simply stay up at the upper landing to the staircase, if I suspect an intrusion.
Sure you will. You may not like doing it, but it's still an option.

Just like the father could have stayed inside and told the neighbor/relative to call the police.

It's true that people sometimes do things that are tactically unwise because they feel obligated to do so, but that doesn't eliminate the tactically sound option, it just makes it less attractive to them in the short term.
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old September 30, 2012, 08:45 PM   #35
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
JohnKSa, we have to disagree on this one.

If I hear something downstairs that sounds like a threat, and I know my mother is down there, then staying upstairs and guarding the landing becomes my wife's job. (She has a gun of her own.)

Unfortunately, due to bad knees, etc, there will not be any way to consolidate all loved ones in one part of the house. (My mother and my wife's father have a very hard time with stairs.)

This is a fairly common problem, and one that people might want to consider when laying out their homes.
MLeake is offline  
Old September 30, 2012, 09:04 PM   #36
Tucker 1371
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2008
Location: East TN
Posts: 2,649
Let me just say this, and I'm inviting a WORLD of poo on myself here but here goes.

OC spray, I've been hit with it to get certified for an armed security job which I ended up not taking. It SUCKS and is almost immediately debilitating. I'm no chump and it brought me to my knees for about 15 minutes. I'd honestly rather be shot or tazed or beaten or blown up, OC is the most miserable experience I can imagine next to having your fingernails ripped out. If you know how to use it right it's 99.999 percent effective. Then again if you're dealing with an individual armed with a gun it's usually better to bring your own. You can never have too many tools at your disposal though.
__________________
Sgt. of Marines, 5th Award Expert Rifle, 237/250
Expert Pistol, 382/400. D Co, 4th CEB, Engineers UP!!
If you start a thread, be active in it. Don't leave us hanging.
OEF 2011 Sangin, Afg. Molon Labe
Tucker 1371 is offline  
Old September 30, 2012, 09:19 PM   #37
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 24,928
Quote:
JohnKSa, we have to disagree on this one.
There can't be disagreement. It is certainly an option, even if it's one that you feel you can't avail yourself of. Short of being physically forced to go downstairs, it's clearly an option to remain upstairs.

I can understand why you may feel that you must go downstairs--I'm not even saying that I wouldn't go downstairs if I were in your place. I'm just pointing out that no one is actually forcing you to do so.

Look, when things go sour, you may very well go downstairs after considering the situation. But you should make that decision then, based on the circumstances. It's a mistake to rule out options at this point--especially tactically sound options.
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old September 30, 2012, 09:49 PM   #38
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Posts: 12,714
Quote:
If in 15 years the father hadn't explained to his son why creeping around in black with your face covered at night is a bad idea then the blame lies on him as well.
LOL, my father never told me not to do this, and he was a cop until I was 10! Your father took you aside and told you not to do this before you were 15?
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old September 30, 2012, 10:11 PM   #39
wayneinFL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 18, 2004
Posts: 1,944
Quote:
LOL, my father never told me not to do this, and he was a cop until I was 10! Your father took you aside and told you not to do this before you were 15?
I was told this at one point during my teenage years. Don't remember the timing, exactly. But, yeah, I was told not to sneak around our house, or other people's houses at night, because it's a good way to get yourself shot. It wasn't the exact words, "Don't cover your face, dress up in black, and sneak around our house at night", but it was enough to get my attention.

It could be your dad figured you already had the sense not to do this.
wayneinFL is offline  
Old September 30, 2012, 10:23 PM   #40
Tucker 1371
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2008
Location: East TN
Posts: 2,649
Quote:
Double Naught Spy
LOL, my father never told me not to do this, and he was a cop until I was 10! Your father took you aside and told you not to do this before you were 15?
Yeah. And I didn't need to be told either. Common sense should lead one to the question "What would I do if I had a gun and saw me doing this?"

Edit: ditto what wayneinFL said, by both my father and grandfather
__________________
Sgt. of Marines, 5th Award Expert Rifle, 237/250
Expert Pistol, 382/400. D Co, 4th CEB, Engineers UP!!
If you start a thread, be active in it. Don't leave us hanging.
OEF 2011 Sangin, Afg. Molon Labe
Tucker 1371 is offline  
Old September 30, 2012, 11:58 PM   #41
Slopemeno
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 19, 2007
Posts: 2,663
I think we all have a sneaking suspicion what Jr. was up to.

And I don't consider this a "no-win". The father could have stayed inside and called the police. The "bad-guy" was still outside of the females house.

I'd be interested to see if there were other reports in their neighborhood of a masked prowler.
Slopemeno is offline  
Old October 1, 2012, 01:39 AM   #42
youngunz4life
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2010
Location: United States of America
Posts: 1,877
I think more people would be backing this guy up if he had shot a BG that wasn't his flesh and blood but was confirmed to be a serial rapist and sometimes murderer.

Blaming this guy is wrong and basically couch potato monday mrng quarterbacking. He tried to do the right thing. He probably received an extremely frantic phonecall...most women and people know many times these frantic calls are happening while the woman is shot dead. At any rate, one would have to ask the dad what his thoughts were when he pulled the trigger. I guess he feared for his life, but I am sure he is monday mrng quarterbacking it himself. This doesn't change the outcome.
__________________
"Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!" -Admiral Farragut @ Battle of Mobile Bay 05AUG1864
youngunz4life is offline  
Old October 1, 2012, 04:23 AM   #43
youngunz4life
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2010
Location: United States of America
Posts: 1,877
Quote:
I think we all have a sneaking suspicion what Jr. was up to
for all we know he was trying to steal the 18pack of michelob he knew was in the fridge & his "bright idea" about the ski mask was to make sure the family didn't recognize him in his 'worst case scenario'.

Quote:
The "bad-guy" was still outside of the females house
I am sure he didn't have all the facts when the incident occured.
__________________
"Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!" -Admiral Farragut @ Battle of Mobile Bay 05AUG1864
youngunz4life is offline  
Old October 1, 2012, 05:51 AM   #44
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Posts: 12,714
Quote:
I think we all have a sneaking suspicion what Jr. was up to.
Okay, what was he up to?

Quote:
The "bad-guy" was still outside of the females house
The good guy (step father and brother) was asked by the neighbor sister to investigate a possible burglar (prowler). Being a good brother and taking care of family, he did so. So he was 100% in the right for what he was doing there. He found the prowler who is our bad guy stepson. When that happened, the all black and ski-masked bad guy came at the good guy with a knife. There was a scuffle. The bad guy was killed.
http://www.newstimes.com/policerepor...on-3902162.php

ALL of the legal aspects for self defense are covered. It does not matter that the bad guy was outside the female's house because he posed a threat to the good guy.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1925224.html

As for reports of a masked prowler in the neighborhood recently, nothing shows up in the local newspaper's police blotter.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old October 1, 2012, 06:10 AM   #45
Pistolgripshotty
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 19, 2012
Location: Somewhere out there
Posts: 184
Quote:
A "house gun" should have a light on it.
Enough said in my opinion.
__________________
12 Gauge Fury!
Pistolgripshotty is offline  
Old October 1, 2012, 08:09 AM   #46
shortwave
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 17, 2007
Location: SOUTHEAST, OHIO
Posts: 5,970
I understand what John is saying about 'choices'.

Naturally, most everything we consciously do is done by our own choice to do so.

I also understand that there are circumstances in which I will inject myself into a situation that some may question. If my family is involved and there is an incident the same as the one the OP started this thread over. You can bet I'll be there for that family member(s).

The scenario MLeake referred to with having an elderly relative downstairs. I was in that situation for twelve years with my father and you can bet if an intruder would have got into the house downstairs, I would do what I had to to protect dad.

These ARE 'choices' that I would have made but I don't think they are wrong choices but are more normal choices and I believe most would do the same.

Has it been confirmed that the neighbor was in fact the shooters sister?

If so, under the same 'known' circumstances, I would have done the same as this dad did. Armed myself and headed straight next door to her house. My intentions would have been get into her house and stay with her till LEO arrived or escort her back to my house depending on if my family was there alone and wait on LEO.

Many years ago, the ex and I lived next door to an elderly lady(Mrs. Bishop) in which we became very fond of. At least once a month, in the wee hours of the morning, Mrs.Bishop called our house reporting noises she had heard outside or saw somebody looking in her window or smelled electrical wiring burning, etc.
Mrs. Bishop knew all the local LEO's on a first name bases and I nor LEO ever found a sign of any problem. She spent many nights with us as we figured she just got scared at night.

Whatever her reason for calling, I always asked her if her doors were locked and told her to turn all inside and outside lights on and we did the same before I went over there.
shortwave is offline  
Old October 1, 2012, 10:42 AM   #47
Slopemeno
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 19, 2007
Posts: 2,663
The father mistook the urge to "do something" for "do something NOW". Stay inside. Call 911. Say "Suspect Present".

I also bet he didn't head over to her house to enter the door, but to sweep the exterior of the house and find the prowler.
Slopemeno is offline  
Old October 1, 2012, 11:06 AM   #48
shortwave
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 17, 2007
Location: SOUTHEAST, OHIO
Posts: 5,970
Quote:
I think we all have a sneaking suspicion what Jr. was up to.
Quote:
I also bet he didn't head over to her house to enter the door, but to sweep the exterior of the house and find the prowler.

Slopeman,

With respect, we can assume what the boy and dads intentions were all day long but reality is, given the current lack of publicized facts, we don't know the intentions of either.

Last edited by shortwave; October 1, 2012 at 11:12 AM.
shortwave is offline  
Old October 1, 2012, 04:57 PM   #49
TailGator
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 8, 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,786
Quote:
A "house gun" should have a light on it.
So now we see an illuminated masked person approaching us with a knife. Do our reactions change?
TailGator is offline  
Old October 1, 2012, 05:50 PM   #50
youngunz4life
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2010
Location: United States of America
Posts: 1,877
there are pros and cons to everything. personally, I don't want the light
__________________
"Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!" -Admiral Farragut @ Battle of Mobile Bay 05AUG1864
youngunz4life is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:29 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.12306 seconds with 10 queries