AR 15 Pistol?

[waymore]

First of all I hope I'm posting this in the correct forum. I know they are technically classified as pistols, but I think there would be more interested members in this forum than the hand gun forum. Recently I came across the opportunity to purchase a variation of this platform for a reasonable price. Up until now I have never even considered this. This got me to thinking what the knowledgable people of this forum feel about this.

With the Sig Stock that allows the firearm to be legally shouldered, I feel that it may have a use for me. But already owning a M&P 15 (and loving it) I wonder if I would begin to prefer something smaller. Hopefully some members with more experience than me could provide some input.

I am wondering is the AR 15 pistol platform not taken seriously by members here? Is this considered to be more of a novelty than a serious firearm?

The reason I ask this is because they seem to bee slightly taboo on this forum with very little discussion on them.

Thanks in advance for your feedback.

[dakota.potts]

They don't pop up often in my opinion because they are not an ideal platform for sport, hunting, competitive or target shooting and that is what 99% of rifles are used for. I have had the chance to handle (not shoot) guns with these stocks and they are just not as easy or comfortable as conventional stocks.

Where they shine to me is in a PDW platform in 6.8 or 300 blackout (possibly suppressed) for use inside of 100 yards or so

[raimius]

5.56 loses a lot out of an 8-9in barrel. Also, pre-Sig brace, they were not the most comfortable to shoot. The blast out of a short AR isn't pleasant to be next to either! So, those are probably large parts of why they are not more popular.

If you want ballistic performance, I'd use something other than 5.56.

...They do look fun though!

[Mobuck]

Loud and obnoxious would be the first words I'd use. Ferocious muzzle blast and flash would follow. It's the only gun I own that makes me want to use plugs and muffs.

[ShaulWolf]

It really depends on what you want to use it for. .223/5.56 loses a lot out of the short barrel, so it's not that effective at distance. There's also a lot more muzzle flash and concussion to deal with as well. However, it's very maneuverable in tight spaces, so that's useful when running the gun close in.

It's debatable on its use for home defense due to the increased muzzle flash and concussion, but that's personal preference. It'd definitely be something to look into if you could throw a suppressor on it to mitigate that though.

[waymore]

Thanks for your input on this topic. It sounds like the short barrel + .223 load is the problem here. Is there a happy medium where you could enjoy the classification of a pistol and barrel that is slightly longer. Say an 11-12 inch barrel?

also:

Are there any benificial attachments that can extend the barrel without requiring a tax stamp?

[Skans]

I have an AR pistol - Carbon 15 Type 97. Bought it for kicks and giggles. It's a good shooter and fun to plink around with. It really is a very light weight, somewhat easy to conceal 5.56 assault pistol. Fun as heck to rip off a full magazine in only a few seconds with it.

FWIW, it'd make a good SHTF weapon. Lightweight and easy to pack.

[Dragline45]

If you want something shorter than your M&P15 skip the AR pistol and build something practical like an SBR.

[Skans]

I really don't see how an AR SBR is more practical than an AR pistol. To me the only purpose either serve is 1) ease of carry and 2) concealment.

[suppressedisbest]

With that new SIG pistol brace build (or buy) a 10.3 in AR pistol and put the brace on it. Save $200. The better brand ones are practically the same thing as a MK18 just with a bare buffer tube.

Head Down AR pistols are starting to come with them now.

It's as comfortable to shoot as any real SBR, especially wearing a plate carrier.

You can also put a MagPul AFG or Strike Cobra AG on it, hand stops etc. Just no vertical grips...

[loose_holster_dan]

i've got the sig p556, so it doesn't have the buffer tube. i had originally purchased it with intentions to do the paperwork to convert to a side folding sbr, but never got around to it. it's cool, but not very functional. the optics are worthless, so i threw a laser on it with a touch pad. still fun, but rarely shot.

[waymore]

I like the look of those Sig's without the buffer tube

[Fishbed77]

I am wondering is the AR 15 pistol platform not taken seriously by members here? Is this considered to be more of a novelty than a serious firearm?

Prior to the SB15 brace, the AR-15 pistol was a novelty at best. Mind you - there is nothing wrong with a fun range toy. Or they were a starting point for an SBR build.

But the SB15 brace is truly a game-changer. It turns the AR pistol back into a truly viable and practical firearm that can be used for HD, general use, and as a shorter suppressor host (keeping in mind that most suppressors like at least a 10.5" barrel). And it allows you to do this with out asking permission from Uncle Sugar and (very unconstitutionally) paying for a tax stamp or asking permission to cross state lines or sell your private property.

Even the AR snobs over at M4carbine.net have slowly come around to accept the brace-equipped AR pistol as a serious firearm.

The brace also persuaded me to build my first AR pistol. I decided to make it a KISS setup with a 10.5" barrel that has all the utility of an SBR with none of the unconstitutional BS:





-Aero Precision 1:7 twist 10.5" QPQ (melonite) barrel & FSB (very impressed with this barrel so far)
-PSA receivers (they are cheap, local to me, and have always served me very well)
-BCM Gunfighter Mod 3 grip
-KAK Super SIG tube
-BCM H2 buffer
-SB15
-Magpul MOE SL handguard
-Troy Folding Battlesight rear sight.
-Noveske QD endplate

Been extremely pleased so far. Function has been 100% with everything from 75gr BTHP Match through crappy Tula steel-cased, and groupings are very nice.

[ShaulWolf]

Fishbed, that's a nice looking setup there. I like how it's clean and simple. I'd throw a microdot on it, but that's personal preference. How warm do the handguards get after a couple mags?

One big reason I'd consider an AR pistol over an SBR is the fact that I don't have to pay an additional $200 for the tax stamp and go through the paperwork of one. That's a pretty big deal right there. I give up being able to throw on a few extras and lose some velocity and range, but if I'm going to use it for close in shooting that's not a huge deal.

If you can keep the barrel length within legal limits with attachments, a muzzle break or compensator would be useful. Those, however, tend to increase the muzzle flash and sideways concussion more to something that's already going to loud and bright. If the muzzle break vents sideways that won't be as big of a deal though for you, and the added controllability when firing quickly is a plus.

[Fishbed77]

Fishbed, that's a nice looking setup there. I like how it's clean and simple. I'd throw a microdot on it, but that's personal preference.

Thanks!

I'll likely put an Aimpoint PRO on it one day. I just can't justify the additional cost of a T-1 or H-1 Micro & mount just to save a few ounces. The pistol isn't really that lightweight anyway, since the SB-15 is a bit heavier than a typical carbine stock. I certainly need to add a sling - will probably go with a Vickers VCAS.

How warm do the handguards get after a couple mags?

They don't. They Magpul handguards have very effective heat shields.

[ShaulWolf]

Awesome. Since I can't run an angled foregrip, that's the route I'd go.

Also, damnit, now y'all have me pricing things out for this build.

[Fishbed77]

Awesome. Since I can't run an angled foregrip, that's the route I'd go.

The ATF has determined that the Magpul AFG is OK on pistols.

Also, damnit, now y'all have me pricing things out for this build.

What you see above was able to squeak in just under $800. Got the barrel w/ FSB, receivers (PSA "blems" with no noticeable blemishes), and Troy sight on sale. Got the SB-15 brand new off Ebay for $114, which is a good bit lower than what most online retailers sell it for.

[waymore]

Thanks for all the responses I'm glad to see I'm not the only one interested in this topic.

A couple more thoughts:

What twist rate are you guys going for on the barrels?

For a suppressor what do your prefer? Noveske KX3 seems to be very effective, but does add extra weight and length. Would you go with a standard A2, and how big of a difference does it make on sound and flash?

[ShaulWolf]

Fishbed, good info there. I wasn't aware of the ATF's ruling on the AFG, so awesome stuff. Note, that's entirely personal preference. Some like 'em, others hate 'em, others don't care.

Someone with more experience with pistol builds can answer the twist rate question. I'd imagine running a 1:9 twist rate would work well though.

Suppressors do a fair amount to reduce flash and sound. The round out of a 14.5" barrel still goes supersonic, so you'll get the crack from the round. However, the suppressor will contain the muzzle blast and concussion from the hot gasses being released. That should drop it by at least 23 decibels, and make it significantly more pleasant to shoot in terms of flash, concussion, and felt recoil. To give an idea, going full auto on an M4 without earplugs wasn't an issue (though still not suggested), the shooters to my left and right didn't notice the muzzle blast, and the felt recoil was cut in half.

I'd probably go for a sturdy suppressor for an AR pistol since you're going to have more flash from powder still burning as the round exits due to the significantly shorter barrel length. The suppressor should still work like it should, though you might get a little more noise. Someone else can confirm or set me straight.

[skizzums]

def go 1-7 on a pistol. you need be to able to utilize the really heavy bullets. well, at least 1:8 anyways.

I have a 300blackout pistol that is a lot of fun. it's really light and easy to maneuver, just have a simple reflex sight. I feel it's the perfect HD gun. it's small and light enough to pick up with one hand in a hurry. I don't know that I would want a 5.56 short barrel. it's not that I don't think it would be effective, but it would be super-loud(and somewhat less effective), and I don't really know the use for an ar pistol if not for some kind of HD.

and by suppressor, do you mean "muzzle brake" or "compensator"

[waymore]

"and by suppressor, do you mean "muzzle brake" or "compensator""

Skizzum:

I'm probably confused, but from my brief amount of research I thought "flash Suppressors" are different from both a "muzzle brake" and "compensator".

Between "muzzle brake" and "compensator" I believe I would be more interested in a "compressor". from what I've read "muzzle Brakes" don't do much for the noise.


http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...a-flash-hider/

[suppressedisbest]

My preference is 1:7 and suppressed for sure. It's still a little loud but much quieter than unsuppressed. My suppressor is a simple thread on so I use a Vortex flash hider when I'm not using the can cause you just screw it down and bam. Easy on easy off no spacers, torque specs, or precise clocking/timing or any of that.
However if you want to buy a can you should go ahead and get a really nice one. I'd recommend a qd setup. If you have multiple rifle calibers get a .308 qd can and get the adapters for your 308's, Ak's, AR's etc.

Realized you're talking about flash suppressors. I've always favored the Smith Ent. Vortex.

[Fishbed77]

What twist rate are you guys going for on the barrels?

I can see no reason to go with anything other than a 1:7 twist for a 5.56mm/.223 AR pistol barrel. It will allow you to shoot the widest range of bullet weights, and these aren't meant to be precision long-range rifles (though they can still be quite accurate).

[ShaulWolf]

Suppressor, meaning sound suppressor, aka silencer/can/scary assassin thingy. That's IF you can and want to go through the paperwork for the tax stamp to get one.

Flash hider/suppressor more specifically mitigates muzzle flash, but doesn't necessarily provide stability and reduce muzzle rise.

A compensator provides stability by directing gasses so that there is less to no muzzle climb and the recoil directly back. Tends to cause more concussion to the front and a little more to the sides. Usually creates more muzzle flash.

A muzzle break provides stability by directing gasses to the side so there is less recoil from escaping gasses, and thus less movement. Tends to cause more concussion to the sides and a little more to the front. Usually creates more muzzle flash.

Some muzzle devices combine features of 2 or more of the above, such as the standard A2 flash hider, which acts as a flash hider and compensator.

[skizzums]

your A2 cage would be your best bet if ever considering indoor use, maybe a linear compensator although I don't have personal experience with them

suppressors will double your cost of the rifle, plus 200 bucks for a stamp. definitely an awesome thing to have if you have the time/money and dsire for one.