combat shotguns

stinger · January 10, 2002, 05:48 PM

i'm sure you guys will know:

a friend of mine told me that shotties are not allowed under the rules governing war. i am not too sure about this, but for all i know he is right.

i know that shotguns are used in the military, but are they just for policing, guarding, etc., or are they/can they be used in combat?

thanks,

stinger

maxwayne · January 10, 2002, 06:06 PM

They have been used by the US in combat since WWI and are still being used today.

Pat Rogers · January 10, 2002, 06:23 PM

Sir,
This is an urban legend.
This type of nonsense is usually perpetrated by people who "know" that the use 12.7x99 on personnel is not permitted, that (former) Soviet small arms could use NATO ammunition ad nauseum. It is passed down thru the ages, and eventually has a life of it's own.

Hope this helps!

Harley Nolden · January 11, 2002, 03:45 AM

Eric:
FOR THE REST OF THE STORY:

Read this booK:

Collectors Guide to
UNITED STATES COMBAT SHOTGUNS
BY
Canfield.

They have been and still are used by the military in combat situations.

HJN

Skorzeny · January 11, 2002, 05:13 AM

The myth comes from the fact that Europeans often looked down on the use of shotguns for military or police work as barbaric (a barbaric American practice to be more accurate) while humanely using fully automatic submachine guns for their police work.

Yes, I'm being sarcastic.

BTW, Europeans are using more shotguns nowadays for their police and military work (while we Americans are using more submachine guns and "urban" rifles for our police work).

Skorzeny

Larry Wright · January 11, 2002, 04:03 PM

Some of the confusion might be from the regulation that governs the Law of Land Warfare; it seems to me to be somewhat ambiguous. (see excerpt below)

Section III. FORBIDDEN MEANS OF WAGING WARFARE
33. Means of Injuring the Enemy Limited
a. Treaty Provision.

The right of belligerents to adopt means of injuring the enemy is not unlimited. (HR, art. 22.)

b. The means employed are definitely restricted by international declarations and conventions and by the laws and usages of war.

34. Employment of Arms Causing Unnecessary Injury
a. Treaty Provision.

It is especially forbidden * * * to employ arms, projectiles, or material calculated to cause unnecessary suffering. (HR, art. 23, par. (e).)

b. Interpretation. What weapons cause "unnecessary injury" can only be determined in light of the practice of States in refraining from the use of a given weapon because it is believed to have that effect. The prohibition certainly does not extend to the use of explosives contained in artillery projectiles, mines, rockets, or hand grenades. Usage has, however, established the illegality of the use of lances with barbed heads, irregular-shaped bullets, and projectiles filled with glass, the use of any substance on bullets that would tend unnecessarily to inflame a wound inflicted by them, and the scoring of the surface or the filing off of the ends of the hard cases of bullets.

KSFreeman · January 11, 2002, 04:47 PM

I'd listen to THE Pat Rogers if I waz you. Someone needs to write a book about latrine rumors like these.

Pat, I know a guy who knows a guy who rode the #156 LaSalle Street bus one time in `93 in Chicago with someone who said they used to wear black and jump out of helicopters with a dagger in his mouth and he sez that the only way you can legally use a 12.7 is if you are shooting at the web gear. BTW, since I crammed a bunch of .308 in my AK mags, who is the best gunsmith to fix my carbine?

Regards,

A gun shop commando.

P.S.--Are you coming back to Lebanon this year? If so, can I bring my laser/phaser rifle?

P.P.S.--Can you bring Ken some better cigars?

C.R.Sam · January 11, 2002, 05:22 PM

Been used. Bein used. Bout any type, make n model you can think of.

Sam

Pat Rogers · January 11, 2002, 06:22 PM

I would love to get back to Lebanon this year- all i need is 3 more hrs in a day, and 3 more days in a week!
I'm going to be pretty busy until June at least, and i'm not sure after that.

You can of course bring anything appropriate to class.
The thing is, if you start casting your eyes towrda milky white skies and high flying planes, you are out!

Ken smoke ceegars????
No kiddin'???

KSFreeman · January 12, 2002, 11:45 AM

Pat, we'd love to have you back in the Land of Truth and Justice, but I'm sure you have more pressing clients now (God be with them).

Yes, Cap'n Campbell loves fine ceegars. Mr. Wheat even has a "tactical" cigar case for SRT applications. Please send a crate of Cubanos to my office and I will see to it that he gets (some of) them.

Pat Rogers · January 12, 2002, 12:12 PM

Brent and Ken?? Oh no!!!

But you know, Cuban ceegars are not permitted in this Country!

KSFreeman · January 12, 2002, 01:48 PM

Objection, your honor. The prosecution is misconstruing the executive odor y statute.

Not exactly [long boring legal hair-splitting to follow]. Just think of it this way, you are serving your nation by destroying the enemy's crops!!!

KSFreeman · January 13, 2002, 12:29 PM

Erick, firing up Juan Clemente as I type. Yet another benefit of being self-employed!

January 10, 2002, 06:23 PM	#3
Pat Rogers Member in memoriam Join Date: July 31, 2001 Posts: 303	Shotguns in Combat Sir, This is an urban legend. This type of nonsense is usually perpetrated by people who "know" that the use 12.7x99 on personnel is not permitted, that (former) Soviet small arms could use NATO ammunition ad nauseum. It is passed down thru the ages, and eventually has a life of it's own. Hope this helps! __________________ S/F Pat sends www.eagtactical.com

January 11, 2002, 03:45 AM	#4
Harley Nolden Staff In Memoriam Join Date: January 8, 1999 Location: Brunswick,GA USA Posts: 1,884	Combat Shotguns Eric: FOR THE REST OF THE STORY: Read this booK: Collectors Guide to UNITED STATES COMBAT SHOTGUNS BY Canfield. They have been and still are used by the military in combat situations. HJN

January 11, 2002, 05:13 AM	#5
Skorzeny Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 1999 Posts: 1,938	The myth comes from the fact that Europeans often looked down on the use of shotguns for military or police work as barbaric (a barbaric American practice to be more accurate) while humanely using fully automatic submachine guns for their police work. Yes, I'm being sarcastic. BTW, Europeans are using more shotguns nowadays for their police and military work (while we Americans are using more submachine guns and "urban" rifles for our police work). Skorzeny __________________ For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

January 11, 2002, 04:03 PM	#6
Larry Wright Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2001 Location: Yorktown, Va Posts: 289	Some of the confusion might be from the regulation that governs the Law of Land Warfare; it seems to me to be somewhat ambiguous. (see excerpt below) Section III. FORBIDDEN MEANS OF WAGING WARFARE 33. Means of Injuring the Enemy Limited a. Treaty Provision. The right of belligerents to adopt means of injuring the enemy is not unlimited. (HR, art. 22.) b. The means employed are definitely restricted by international declarations and conventions and by the laws and usages of war. 34. Employment of Arms Causing Unnecessary Injury a. Treaty Provision. It is especially forbidden * * * to employ arms, projectiles, or material calculated to cause unnecessary suffering. (HR, art. 23, par. (e).) b. Interpretation. What weapons cause "unnecessary injury" can only be determined in light of the practice of States in refraining from the use of a given weapon because it is believed to have that effect. The prohibition certainly does not extend to the use of explosives contained in artillery projectiles, mines, rockets, or hand grenades. Usage has, however, established the illegality of the use of lances with barbed heads, irregular-shaped bullets, and projectiles filled with glass, the use of any substance on bullets that would tend unnecessarily to inflame a wound inflicted by them, and the scoring of the surface or the filing off of the ends of the hard cases of bullets. __________________ A man with his heart in his profession finds ways and means where the worthless and lazy despair. Frederick the Great

January 11, 2002, 06:22 PM	#9
Pat Rogers Member in memoriam Join Date: July 31, 2001 Posts: 303	Indiana? I would love to get back to Lebanon this year- all i need is 3 more hrs in a day, and 3 more days in a week! I'm going to be pretty busy until June at least, and i'm not sure after that. You can of course bring anything appropriate to class. The thing is, if you start casting your eyes towrda milky white skies and high flying planes, you are out! Ken smoke ceegars???? No kiddin'??? __________________ S/F Pat sends www.eagtactical.com

January 10, 2002, 05:48 PM	#1
stinger Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2001 Location: west texas Posts: 772	combat shotguns i'm sure you guys will know: a friend of mine told me that shotties are not allowed under the rules governing war. i am not too sure about this, but for all i know he is right. i know that shotguns are used in the military, but are they just for policing, guarding, etc., or are they/can they be used in combat? thanks, stinger

January 10, 2002, 06:06 PM	#2
maxwayne Senior Member Join Date: March 10, 2001 Posts: 402	They have been used by the US in combat since WWI and are still being used today.

January 11, 2002, 04:47 PM	#7
KSFreeman Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2001 Location: Lafayette, Indiana--American-occupied America Posts: 5,418	I'd listen to THE Pat Rogers if I waz you. Someone needs to write a book about latrine rumors like these. Pat, I know a guy who knows a guy who rode the #156 LaSalle Street bus one time in `93 in Chicago with someone who said they used to wear black and jump out of helicopters with a dagger in his mouth and he sez that the only way you can legally use a 12.7 is if you are shooting at the web gear. BTW, since I crammed a bunch of .308 in my AK mags, who is the best gunsmith to fix my carbine? Regards, A gun shop commando. P.S.--Are you coming back to Lebanon this year? If so, can I bring my laser/phaser rifle? P.P.S.--Can you bring Ken some better cigars?

January 11, 2002, 05:22 PM	#8
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	Been used. Bein used. Bout any type, make n model you can think of. Sam

January 12, 2002, 11:45 AM	#10
KSFreeman Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2001 Location: Lafayette, Indiana--American-occupied America Posts: 5,418	Pat, we'd love to have you back in the Land of Truth and Justice, but I'm sure you have more pressing clients now (God be with them). Yes, Cap'n Campbell loves fine ceegars. Mr. Wheat even has a "tactical" cigar case for SRT applications. Please send a crate of Cubanos to my office and I will see to it that he gets (some of) them.

January 12, 2002, 12:12 PM	#11
Pat Rogers Member in memoriam Join Date: July 31, 2001 Posts: 303	Cubanos? Brent and Ken?? Oh no!!! But you know, Cuban ceegars are not permitted in this Country! __________________ S/F Pat sends www.eagtactical.com

January 12, 2002, 01:48 PM	#12
KSFreeman Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2001 Location: Lafayette, Indiana--American-occupied America Posts: 5,418	Objection, your honor. The prosecution is misconstruing the executive odor y statute. Not exactly [long boring legal hair-splitting to follow]. Just think of it this way, you are serving your nation by destroying the enemy's crops!!!

January 13, 2002, 12:29 PM	#13
KSFreeman Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2001 Location: Lafayette, Indiana--American-occupied America Posts: 5,418	Erick, firing up Juan Clemente as I type. Yet another benefit of being self-employed!