The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > General Discussion Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old January 17, 2013, 07:30 AM   #1
Moby
Member
 
Join Date: November 11, 2012
Posts: 91
What makes a firearm an assault rifle

Funny, I took the rifle in the top picture and purchased the exact stock, the Archangel, in the bottom picture. AND I STILL DO NOT WANT TO SHOOT ANYONE!

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013...assault-rifle/

__________________
“A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government.” ~George Washington
US Coast Guard 76-86 Semper Paratus
Moby is offline  
Old January 17, 2013, 08:30 AM   #2
2ndsojourn
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 15, 2013
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 1,416
What's sad is both rifles pictured in that link are illegal here in New Jersey.
2ndsojourn is offline  
Old January 17, 2013, 08:43 AM   #3
BPowderkeg
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 27, 2011
Posts: 382


here is a better pic.

Quote:
"What makes a firearm an assault rifle"

it is that little lever that can be selected to the FA position !!

any rifle without that FA position is NOT an assault weapon !!

simple, plain and clear.., at least for those intelligent enough to understand terminology !!
BPowderkeg is offline  
Old January 17, 2013, 09:29 AM   #4
Rifleman1776
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 25, 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 3,309
Your premise is correct. There is no definition for "assualt gun".
The Federal definition for "assualt rifle" has several points but the main one is it must be full auto.
The media automatically classifies all firearms as "weapons". Guns that look like ARs are classed (by them) as 'assualt rifles or guns' incorrectly.
Rifleman1776 is offline  
Old January 17, 2013, 10:12 AM   #5
SoCalNoMore
Junior Member
 
Join Date: January 4, 2013
Posts: 12
If we can change the term we use, I think it would be helpful. I know many that are calling AR style rifles "sport rifles" or "defense rifles".

The laziness of the media to properly call a duck a duck is killing us.
SoCalNoMore is offline  
Old January 17, 2013, 11:20 AM   #6
RC20
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2008
Location: Alaska
Posts: 7,014
You are not going to change the term. G&A and the firearm industry have tried to change it to MSR (Modern Sporting Rifle) for years. Ok, if you are going to do it, get something catchy. Assault Weapon like it or not has that for the press, MSR doe snot.

At some point, you have to accept you are spitting in the wind and while you do not have to use the term, you have to argue on the basis of others using and accepting the term (and not just the opposition, the large group in the middle that is trying to make sens of all this)

So, first

ITS THE SECOND AMENDMENT! Its not the third, 4th or tenth. The though it was that damned important. Inherent in the 2nd is both gun ownership and civic duty.

Second (pun): The gun available and used by the armed forces in those days was the musket. Regardless of how you feel, the modern equivalent of the musket is the AR (frankly I think the ergonomics suck, but it is what they equipped the US forces with)

By default, if the civic duty and requirement (gun ownership right aside) is to be honored, you should have an AR.

Last: Read the book and encouraging other to, Living With Guns. You may not like all that is in there and you likely will see some technical items wrong as I did, but its a basis for discussion.
RC20 is offline  
Old January 17, 2013, 11:28 AM   #7
Glenn E. Meyer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 20,064
Once you call a gun a modern sporting rifle - you are trying to pretend that it is not a dangerous weapon useful for the defense against tyranny.

It's for hunting. So what.

Ok - let's ban armor piercing bullets. Are most center rifle rounds able to penetrate body armor without ceramic plates?

Bye, bye - bambi killer sporting rifles.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old January 17, 2013, 11:32 AM   #8
Ed4032
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 13, 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 306
If it is black then it must be an EBR. All EBR's are assault weapons. Or so I am told by the media.
__________________
Gun control is like stopping drunk driving by making it harder for sober people to drive.
Ed4032 is online now  
Old January 17, 2013, 12:15 PM   #9
KMAX
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2011
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,185
I have decided to try to misname objects when I talk to people that insist on being ignorant. Wheels will become rollers. Computers will become adding machines or just contraptions. When questioned about, I am simply going to say "Whatever. You know what I mean." Ignorance seems to be fashionable these days. I give up on trying to educate anyone, they win. Rant over.
__________________
This is my gun. There are many like her, but this one is mine.

I'm not old. I'm CLASSIC!
KMAX is offline  
Old January 17, 2013, 04:16 PM   #10
doofus47
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 9, 2010
Location: live in a in a house when i'm not in a tent
Posts: 2,483
perception.
When I was 5, I made "assault weapons" out of legos and/or sticks from our back woods. They all came with built in silencers.

Probably I should have had a license of some sort....
__________________
I'm right about the metric system 3/4 of the time.
doofus47 is offline  
Old January 17, 2013, 04:24 PM   #11
Beagle45ACP
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 6, 2012
Location: IL, USA
Posts: 163
Quote:
I have decided to try to misname objects when I talk to people that insist on being ignorant. Wheels will become rollers. Computers will become adding machines or just contraptions. When questioned about, I am simply going to say "Whatever. You know what I mean." Ignorance seems to be fashionable these days. I give up on trying to educate anyone, they win. Rant over
+1
My buddy and I have been doing this for a while now, especially around our anti-gun friends who think that he and I are at all times only a few seconds away from becoming the next mass-shooting. Sadly, they haven't caught on to the fact that we're satirically poking fun at their ignorance. Instead, they just think we're dumber, and therefore, more dangerous.
__________________
I have a mild interest in guns. Actually, I think the clinical term is "obsession," but that makes me sound like some kind of gun-nut. Which is fair, since I am.

Wastin' away my future children's inheritance one box of ammo, range fee, and bottle of Hoppe's #9 at a time.
Beagle45ACP is offline  
Old January 17, 2013, 04:48 PM   #12
hardworker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 4, 2010
Posts: 820
We can squabble all we want about definitions in an attempt to outsmart the anti's on trivia, or we can call a spade a spade and defend it. An AR is a rifle born and bred for fighting. Hunting with one is akin to using a flathead screwdriver to turn a phillips head screw. It can be done, but there are better tools.

The more we pretend that ARs are no more useful in combat than a lever action rifle, the more we look like nut-jobs with our heads in the sand. Eventually, we'll drive away any logically minded gun owners who are afraid of getting lumped in with the whackos.
hardworker is offline  
Old January 17, 2013, 10:14 PM   #13
radom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 21, 2000
Posts: 1,338
I tend not to agree with the above idea at all.
radom is offline  
Old January 17, 2013, 10:16 PM   #14
SPEMack618
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 21, 2010
Location: Central Georgia
Posts: 1,863
I can't think of a better rifle for hunting coyotes than a Remington R-15.

And my ideal rifle for hogs would be an AR- variant in 6.8 SPC.

And for the record, if I was to deploy to Afghanistan again, I think I would want either an M-16A4 or an M-21.
__________________
NRA Life Member
Read my blog!
"The answer to any caliber debate is going to be .38 Super, 10mm, .357 Sig or .41 Magnum!"

Last edited by SPEMack618; January 17, 2013 at 10:43 PM.
SPEMack618 is offline  
Old January 17, 2013, 10:42 PM   #15
Shane Tuttle
Staff
 
Join Date: November 28, 2005
Location: Montana
Posts: 9,442
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardworker
We can squabble all we want about definitions in an attempt to outsmart the anti's on trivia, or we can call a spade a spade and defend it. An AR is a rifle born and bred for fighting. Hunting with one is akin to using a flathead screwdriver to turn a phillips head screw. It can be done, but there are better tools.
An AR may not be a master of any, but it sure as heck is a Jack of All Trades. And with someone that can't afford a gun for every task, the AR can default to being the best tool for that person.
__________________
If it were up to me, the word "got" would be deleted from the English language.

Posting and YOU: http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting
Shane Tuttle is offline  
Old January 17, 2013, 10:48 PM   #16
Tidewater_Kid
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 3, 2005
Location: Alabama
Posts: 925
I like this....

http://www.assaultweapon.info/

TK
Tidewater_Kid is offline  
Old January 18, 2013, 12:21 AM   #17
BGutzman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 2009
Location: Frozen Tundra
Posts: 2,414
Its the dangerous looking plastic and the pistol handle because anything with a pistol handle is obviously a weapon of mass destruction and death ray like...

No insult to anyone but I wouldn't use 5.56 for anything larger than small game like ground hogs and maybe a fox or something.. Certainly not my choice for big game.. (Again, I am not discrediting how others feel about it) but hey in the mass media, its better than everything else.. Even Fox News calls them Heavy Duty weapons, which is truly about the last thing on earth they are... They are weapons for certain but generally on the much lower end of the rifle power scale. (exceptions for 308 and the like)
__________________
Molon Labe
BGutzman is offline  
Old January 18, 2013, 12:26 AM   #18
SPEMack618
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 21, 2010
Location: Central Georgia
Posts: 1,863
I recently re-read "Point of Impact" by Stephen Hunter, which the film "Shooter" was loosely based off of.

In the novel, a highly decorated Marine is set up as the fall guy for an attempted assasination of the President. In the course of the novel, Mr. Hunter, who is a great friend to the first two amendments to the Constitutions, a fictional editorial from the Washington Post decryiing the supposed weapons used by the protagonist.

What rifle is that?

A pre'-64 Winchester Model 70 in .308, but decried by the fictional editorial as a high-powered sniper rifle.

That gives me pause sometimes when I think of how worked up the MSM gets over what Col. Cooper called a "poodle shooter" and I once or twice angrily referred to as my "mall ninja male enhancement tool", what would they say of just about every scope equipped deer rifle in this country?

That's to say nothing of big game rifles or some of the magnum caliber rifles out there.
__________________
NRA Life Member
Read my blog!
"The answer to any caliber debate is going to be .38 Super, 10mm, .357 Sig or .41 Magnum!"
SPEMack618 is offline  
Old January 21, 2013, 03:04 PM   #19
alan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 7, 1999
Posts: 3,847
Try this for size re the original question:

1. Media Hype.

2. The ever present element of public ignorance, stoked by item 1.

3. The passing winds of political fancy.

4. The constant barrage of flat out lies from The Anti Gun Lobby.

The foregoing are a few things that come immediately to mind.
alan is offline  
Old January 21, 2013, 06:01 PM   #20
wogpotter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 27, 2004
Posts: 4,811
As yhoghurt says:
"Moichandising, moichandising" (spoken tongue-in-cheek)
__________________
Allan Quatermain: “Automatic rifles. Who in God's name has automatic rifles”?

Elderly Hunter: “That's dashed unsporting. Probably Belgium.”
wogpotter is offline  
Old January 21, 2013, 10:19 PM   #21
jackpine
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 24, 2010
Posts: 351
assault is an action not an object. You can be assaulted or engage in an assault but no object is an assault.
jackpine is offline  
Old January 21, 2013, 10:38 PM   #22
chris in va
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 26, 2004
Location: Louisville KY
Posts: 13,804
Quote:
assault is an action not an object. You can be assaulted or engage in an assault but no object is an assault
Mmm, it can be a noun as well. Assault Ship comes to mind.

Look, we can split hairs all we want. The AR is a powerful rifle, mainly due to it's capacity. We have to ALL be very responsible gun owners and keep the things locked up as best we can afford when not in use.

They're saying the 15yo also used one, but not confirmed. I want to know how Adam Lanza got a hold of his mother's.
chris in va is offline  
Old January 22, 2013, 11:06 AM   #23
lcpiper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 15, 2011
Posts: 1,405
Wow guys, get your English right. In "assault ship" Assault modifies the noun. Add the word adjective to your dictionary

And as for a verb, yes assault is a verb or an adjective.


As for the rest. These weapons are supposed to look dangerous, and be dangerous. They are intended for us to keep and be able to use if necessary to protect our lives, freedoms, and our nation from those how would take them away.

So get on your A game fellas.
__________________
Colt M1911, AR-15 | S&W Model 19, Model 27| SIG P238 | Berreta 85B Cheetah | Ruger Blackhawk .357MAG, Bearcat "Shopkeeper" .22LR| Remington Marine Magnum SP 12GA., Model 700 SPS .223
lcpiper is offline  
Old January 22, 2013, 09:36 PM   #24
berettaprofessor
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 23, 2008
Posts: 1,091
Quote:
What makes a firearm an assault rifle
Any journalistic idiot with a pen.
berettaprofessor is offline  
Old January 23, 2013, 01:30 AM   #25
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,617
here we go...again...

Quote:
Quote:
"What makes a firearm an assault rifle"


it is that little lever that can be selected to the FA position !!

any rifle without that FA position is NOT an assault weapon !!

simple, plain and clear.., at least for those intelligent enough to understand terminology !!
And even those who are intelligent enough to understand the terminology can make mistakes, as show in the above quote.

It boils down to the usage of language, translation, and context. We are talking about two nearly identical terms, yet each one refers to very different specific things, in law, and a third thing as well, in common usage. Let's look at the first two, to begin with.

ASSAULT RIFLE
This term was coined by Adolf Hitler. Leaving aside the rather interesting history, the basic facts are that when Hitler was shown the weapon, he decreed that it was to be the Sturmgewehr. Sturm is German which translates into English as either "storm" or "assault", in the military sense of storming or assaulting an objective. Sturm also translates as "storm" in the meterological sense, depending on the context.
Gehwehr translates as rifle. Sturmgewehr is assault rifle.

After the war, the shooting community adopted the main features of the Sturmgewhr to define the class of arms called assault rifles. The primary features are selective fire (the ability to fire both semi auto or full auto on demand) a detatchable magazine, and an "intermediate power" cartridge. If it had all of these features, it was an assault rifle. If it didn't, it wasn't.

(intermediate power cartridge was loosely defined as more powerful than the standard WWII era pistol cartridge, and less powerful than the standard WWII infantry rifle cartridges)

All other features usually found on most assault rifles (bayonet lug, pistol grip, etc..) were just cosmetic, and immaterial to the classification of the gun.

Under US law, all weapons capable of full auto fire are legally machineguns, and fall under the regulation of the National Firearms Act of 1934.

The ONLY assault rifles legally in the hands of US citizens are those that were registered with the ATF before May 19 1986, on which the $200 tax has been paid, multiple layers of background checks have been performed, and the owners have obtained written permission from the local head of law enforcement. NO new ones have been allowed since congress closed the registry in 86.

ASSAULT WEAPON
This is a term made up by the anti gunners, assisted by the media, and codified in law in 1994, thanks to politicians.
It went like this...Stockton Schoolyard shooting, semi auto AK47 used. Media screams, he used an assault rifle!!! Sanity responds with "No, he used a rifle. Assault rifles are select fire (semi & full auto)."
Media screams "He used a semi automatic assault rifle!!!"
Now, "Semiautomatic assault rifle" is quite a mouthful, and not the optimum sound byte. Although the media did persist with the term for some time, by 94 they had all settled on the name "assault weapon". And the weapons they were calling assault weapons were semi auto rifles, pistols, and shotguns, if they had a given combination of the cosmetic features that were on the "evil features" list. NOT machineguns, NOT assault rifles, SEMI AUTO firearms, many models by name, and all others if they met the criteria on the list.

This was codified into Fed law in the 1994 AWB (assault weapons ban), and several states also passed state laws at this time that were virtual carbon copies of the Fed law (without the sunset clause), or were even more restrictive.

Note that the recent New York SAFE act has seriously increased the restrictions and expanded the list of banned features over the still in effect 1994 NY AWB.

In effect, ASSAULT WEAPON means what ever they write into law saying it is.

Those are the big two, and the anti's deliberately chose the term assault weapon to confuse the issue. The semi auto AR that they say is an assault weapon looks identical to the M16 that is an assault rifle. The semi auto AK looks identical to the full auto one. Unless you can see the selector in the full auto fire position, you cannot tell from a picture which one is whch, AR, AK, and many other semi autos look just like the full auto ones.

The third thing clouding the discussion is the context of the word assault, in English. Some people say that any weapon used to assault someone is an assault weapon. And, sadly, in English, they are correct, but in the wrong context. When discussing things in law, we must be precise, AND correct. Even if the other side isn't.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:10 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.11241 seconds with 10 queries